Taoism

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by bob01, May 11, 2004.

  1. soggycat

    soggycat Valued Member

    Gerard

    Neo Confucianism , Neo Taoism is like McDonald’s food.
    Looks nice, not much work required and seems ideal with it’s 3-in-1 packaging

    I am a Taoist purist and subscribe to the teachings of the Yellow Emperor, Lao Tzu, Lu Tung Pin, themselves purist.
    In that’s being stubborn , I guess you are right, I stubbornly refuse to be “diluted ” by all this neo sequels and mix-n-match philosophies
     
  2. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    "In early 300 CE, when Buddhism was permeating through China, Wang Fu wrote a book called Lao-tzu hua-hu ching (The Classic about Lao-Tzu's Civilising of the Barbarians), which had massive distribution and remains an irritant to Chinese Buddhism even to the present day. Wang Fu recounts a story that when Lao-tzu departed China, he traveled across Central Asia into India, and (depending on the version of Wang Fu's story that has survived): Lao-tzu became the Buddha, he converted the Buddha to Taoism, or, one of his students became the Buddha. Unfortunately, the Buddha couldn't quite get Lao-Tzu's teachings quite right, and hence, the birth of Buddhism! This story resulted in a battle of historical forgery by both sides: the Buddhists moved Buddha's birth date further and further back, while the Taoists responded in kind with Lao-Tzu's birth date."

    "The practice of Tao, the way of nature, originated in China in around 500 B.C.E."

    * Both sources from www.marxists.org

    If you value the information provided by www.marxists.org then it would seem you would have to admit that Taoism is considerably less ancient than you have suggested but anyhow...

    While the marxist dictionary does provide some pretty good explanations soggy I wouldn't exactly count it as a good reliable resource. It doesnt quote much where it gets its information from and it also doesnt mention who submitted the individual entry. AND it is a marxist dictionary and marxists aren't exactly known for their incredible depth of knowledge on religions.

    As for your other two links:

    http://www.chibs.edu.tw/publication/chbj\13\13-38.htm
    This is a paper relating to Hua-yen Buddhism which is not Chan Buddhism. Chan Buddhism as I said before was undoubtedly influenced by Chinese culture but I would still maintain that essentially its origins lie in Indian thought; its philosophy is not simply a reaction to Taoism.

    http://www.shared-visions.com/explore/culture/taoofzen.htm
    Sorry soggy but I think this is really a poor piece of evidence. I mean a book where the author has decided Zen Buddhism is a disguised form of Taoism reveals more about the author than anything on the subject matter. There is also a book called the Tao of Piglet would you contend then that Winnie the Pooh was originally influenced by Taoist modes of thought? A review of Ray Griggs book "The New Lao Tzu" I think makes clear the weight that should be attributed to his opinions "Grigg's work is also a reflection of the eclecticism typical of Western dabblers in Eastern mysticism-a hodgepodge of loose interpretations and manipulated conventions. But part of the appeal of such a work, as here, is the ability to retain the enigmatic while rendering the text highly readable... readers will want to remain mindful that this rendering provides access not so much to the Tao Te Ching as to one individual's view of what constitutes contemporary `essential'' wisdom and that that distinction is an important one." From Publishers Weekly
     
  3. soggycat

    soggycat Valued Member

    Taoism has been around some 1500 -2000 years before LaoTzu ( circe 550BCE) But LaoTzu was the first to formalise it when he put his thoughts down on paper. I dont think that discrepancy is that major when you understand this development.
    Same story with Bagua. Dong Hai Chuan was the first to promote it publically circa 1860AD, but it's origins was probably much older. However many people casually refer to Dong Hai Chuan as the founder.They are right and wrong .

    Yes I am saying Winnie the Pooh has a Taoist Character. It was the point made by Benjamin Hoff when he wrote the Tao of Pooh.

    You agree that Chan Buddhism was strongly influenced by Chinese Culture. But you seem to ignore the fact that Chinese culture up to the influx of Buddhism, was ENTIRELY Taoist or Confucianist.
     
  4. gerard

    gerard Valued Member


    Who cares. My belief is that eveything evolves like the Dao itself. Be like water my friend, flow and purify and change and flow, purify and change like a constant cycle of birth and death. Do you remember Heraclitus and later on Hegel's philosophy of dialectica. Nothing is eternal. We move according to Dao's constant evolution at a physical plane, however our spiritual plane is very immature. Therefore the more we argue like now the lesss time we have to unveil our powerful spiritual power which is the ultimate connexion to Dao (IT)





    How are you so sure. What if Daoism was found by some mystical experience let's say 200 thousand years ago in early shamanic practices. How do you know the source of the ultimate truth. Maybe even didn't come from a human source.

    Interesting debate though.

    San bei :love:
     
  5. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    Your argument that Taoism was around for a couple of thousand years prior to Lao Tzu is similiar to the Buddhist argument that Shakyamuni is by no means the first Buddha. However, I believe it is acceptable to admit that before both figures (at least in this aeon) the 'formalised' religions/philosophies of Buddhism and Taoism certainly did not exist. Probably what existed before Lao Tzu's era (if China is anything like any other Eastern country) were alot of varied folk practices; for instance what we call Shinto now is recognisable as a formalised religion but when you try to trace Shinto practices back to their origins you find alot of arguably unrelated folk practices, same goes for Bon in Tibet and so on.

    If you think all that constituted Chinese culture was Taoism and Confucianism your looking through a very religion orientated lense. Do you think peasants on their way back from a hard days harvest were discussing the relative merits of the Taoist concept of "Wu Wei"? Do you think all the pottery and art from China was Taoist or Confucianist orientated? IF your talking about the culture of the elites then yes maybe but the entire country did not live in the court palaces and live leisurely lives...

    There is usually abit more to a culture than the religious practices of the day. Though actually I have no problem admitting Taoism and Confucianism had a huge influence over Chinese society and culture and Buddhism was indeed influenced by such things. What I am contending is this "when pure Buddhism arrived in China circa 100AD ( 600 years after Buddha), it absorbed and borrowed from many Taoist teachings prevalent in that day. After all Taosim had already been around 2000 years earlier." The notion of a pure Buddhism that arrived and simply took Taoist ideas and up popped Chan Buddhism is just wrong. Chan Buddhist teachings did not come from Taoism... pure and simple. You could say Taoism and Chan Buddhism are both products of Chinese values and thinking of the time but to try and suggest that Chan Buddhism is just Taoism under a Buddhist disguise is way off the mark.

    As for Winnie the Pooh isn't that a very Tao-centric view! I mean here we were earlier complaining about the Buddha-centric view that suggested Lao Tzu was a Buddha and now we have Taoism claiming Winnie the Pooh as a Taoist ;) When will it end? :D
    *And before someone takes offense that last bits not serious.
     
  6. HK Pedestrian

    HK Pedestrian New Member

    Greetings All,

    I'm glad to see that the discussion has stayed civil, and interesting. Rare events by themselves, and incredibly rare together.

    There have been two successful fusions of Taoism and Buddhism in Chinese history, the first being Ch'an Buddhism (which is more Buddhist than Taoist) and the second being Neo-Confucianism (which is more Taoist than Buddhist).

    Neo-Confucianism makes extensive use of the teachings of:

    "Mencius (孟子, Meng Tzu, 371 BC - about 289 BC), who was an itinerant philosopher and sage, and one of the principal interpreters of Confucianism. Like Confucius, he travelled China for forty years to offer advice to rulers for reform. He served as an official during the Warring States period (403 - 221 BC) in the State of Qi (齊 qì) from 319 BC to 312 BC. He expressed his filial devotion when he took an absence of three years from his official duties for Qi to mourn his mother's death. Disappointed at his failure to effect changes in his contemporary world, he retired from public life.
    A follower of Confucianism, Mencius argued for the infinite goodness of the individual, believing that it was society's influence—its lack of a positive cultivating influence—which caused bad character. Mencius argued that human beings are born with an innate moral sense which society has corrupted, and that the goal of moral cultivation is to return to one's innate morality.
    Mencius' interpretation of Confucianism has generally been considered the orthodox version by subsequent Chinese philosophers, especially the Neo-Confucians of the Song dynasty. Mencius, a book of his conversations with kings of the time, is one of the Four books which form the core of orthodox Confucian thinking. In contrast to the sayings of Confucius which are short and self-contained, Mencius consists of long dialogues with extensive prose."
    -Wikipedia article.

    Neo-Confucianism is a very subtle study. The Confucians realised that they were losing ground to the Taoists and Buddhists, as well as being threatened by the Jurchen and Mongols to the north, so they deliberately set about synthesizing the elements of the three disciplines into a cosmology (something Confucius himself didn't care about) which would appeal to the public and provide practical benefit to society at the same time. They largely succeeded, and became state orthodoxy up until the end of the Empire in 1912. As I've said before, T'ai Chi Ch'uan is probably the most famous product of Neo-Confucian theory, being a combination of hard Shaolin boxing technique powered by soft Taoist "internal" breath work.
     
  7. soggycat

    soggycat Valued Member

    Lao Tzu is not the Founder of Taoism

    http://www.eng.taoism.org.hk/general-daoism/origin&formation-of-daoism/pg1-1-1-2.asp

    Many people, especially those who rely solely on text written by non Chinese speaking academics , erroneously assume that Taoism was founded by Lao Tzu.
    This is incorrect. Lao Tzu was a major figure in Taoism, largely because he publically promoted the Tao through the Tao Te Ching.
    The Yellow Emperor, who predates Lao Tzu by some 1500-2000 years, was another major Taoist figure. His works are less well known, but only to Westerners.
    One such work “ Treatise on Internal medicine” is mandatory text studied by TCM students in China.
     
  8. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    In fairness soggy that site says "Many Daoist scriptures in the Daoist Canon were written in the name of the Yellow Emperor" after saying "All Chinese people regard themselves as the descendents of the Yan Emperor and of the Yellow Emperor." This would seem to suggest to me that he is more a mythical figure than a historical one. Maybe there was a yellow emperor at one time but I would certainly argue that most of the 'facts' about the yellow emperor are actually going to be 'myths'. This seems to be further supported by his list of achievements i.e. "he set up official positions and selected talented individuals to fill them. He also set up calendars and prayed to spirits in the mountains and rivers. In addition he invented the bow and arrow, built houses, made clothes, initiated Chinese characters, made musical instruments and invented the compass."

    Hence that Daoists would attribute certain works to him is not debatable (or at all unexpected) what is debatable however is whether or not he wrote them (if he actually existed). Even that website clearly states that the scriptures were "written in the name of" suggesting he himself was not the author.
     
  9. soggycat

    soggycat Valued Member

    gerard: Who cares. My belief is that eveything evolves like the Dao itself. Be like water my friend, flow and purify and change and flow, purify and change like a constant cycle of birth and death.

    SC: Taoist purist do care, neo Confucianist or Neo-Taoist obviously dont.
    I agree about mimicking the nature of water, but prefer to be PURE water. :love:


    gerard:Do you remember Heraclitus and later on Hegel's philosophy of dialectica. Nothing is eternal.

    SC: The Tao is ETERNAL, I guesss this basic tenet of Taoism will be irreconcilable to your view inspired by Western philosophy.
    Therein lies the reason for not mixing and matching schools of thought.

    I do agree however it is hard to say who first discovered Taoism.
    So far we only know who the major figures " Patriachs" of Taosim are.
     
  10. soggycat

    soggycat Valued Member

    Yeah guess it is like the bible then.
    Jesus or God didn't write anything( except the 10 Commandments perhaps)
    I must remind myself not to argue with people who's familiarity with Chinese culture and History extends only to food and academic reading about Chinese culture
     
  11. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    Sigh... yes you can put that alongside your mental note to be more diligent in your practice of "Wu Wei" as well and incidentally mental notes and reminders work better when you say them to yourself. If you post it on a message board people might get the impression your just trying to make a point to other people, strange that.

    Oh and also when you get the time out from making mental notes on message boards it would be certainly enjoyable if you could provide a defence for your claims rather than simply suggesting that you have a storehouse of vastly superior knowledge than us mere mortals... If you've got it by all means use it!
     
  12. Adc

    Adc Valued Member

    SC, Generally people can argue or even critically examine and not get upset and start abusing or infering inferiority of others.
    I seem to remember you admitting that
    a: you don't speak,write or understand Mardarin
    b: you have not been to mainland China
    Wouldn't that mean that all your "knowledge" is derived by english translated texts or word of month instruction?
    I would say that there would be a fair representation of Shamanistic, Dietity,Ancestor and Animalistic worship some influences which still exist today particularly in comunities of Taiwan and minorities of the PRC.Just pointing out that absolutes like "Entirely" may not be best suited to this subject matter.
    You got that right brother.
     
  13. gerard

    gerard Valued Member


    Let me tell you something my friend of Sydney:

    1. First get rid of your ego if you want to continue to further discuss anything with me. My name is Gerardm what's yours?

    2. I like to read on what others say, but I am still Gerard. It means that I don't blindly follow anyone, even the sages. Why? Simply because I think like they did. Again it doesn't imply that I am egotistic, far from that.

    3. Nothing is eternal. How do you know that Dao is eternal. Define me the term 'eternal'. If you use your mind you'll be flawed since the mind is finite itself, and anything that is finite contemplates its surroundings from that point of view, but once it tries to understand beyond that adopts an emotional perspective, i.e. eternity, we don't know, maybe God?

    These are all rational responses, therefore we will never know what the truth of the whole thing is because we are limited by our minds, however I still think (mind) that Dao is not either eternal or finite because we'll never know.

    When I said nothing is eternal I meant everything contained in the known Universe, beyond that who cares.

    4. I never will and I never did mixed schools of thought because what I believe is product of direct observation and experience based of prior readings but not the whole readings until I experience that myself. For instance I believe in reincarnation and Karma (buddhist concepts) because I experienced them through meditation, intuition and personal experience. I also believe in Daoist emptiness because that's the basis of the entire reality in opposition, kind of a Yin & Yand but at a metaphysical level.

    However I don't believe (yet) in Enlightenment until I experience it :cry: Maybe (hopefully not) in my next life.

    Also I don't believe (yet) in the Daoist pantheon of Daoist Immortals divided into three levels. The first level is comprised of the 'Lordly Spirits of Anterior Heaven', which have existed since before Heaven and Earth were divided. The second level of 'Perfect Immortals' who have attained Dao after the creation of Heaven and Earth. And finally, the third level made up of 'divinities of popular religion' which are recognized by Daoism, such as the Door Spirits, the Spirits of Wealth, the Kitchen Spirit, the Earth Spirits, the Motherly Matriarch, Emperor Guan, the Saintly founder-King of Zhang, the Water-Margin Lady, etc.

    Look to me all these sounds very much like Greek or Roman religion. Pretty much product of fear. Maybe I'll believe once they start manifesting to me in meditation.

    Gan bei, Gerard.
     
  14. HK Pedestrian

    HK Pedestrian New Member

    Cheers Folks,

    More late night ranting from yours truly...

    We all have to have our own schools of thought if we want to live in truth. Every person is unique, some streams from a particular school may ring true for you, some may not. You may even find a school where you'll agree with almost everything, but since it was formulated by another individual, you'll have to force 100% agreement eventually, and force is contrary to the eternal Tao.

    The Chinese Buddhists talk about "expedient" or "skillful" means. They tell a story about a father seeing his children in a burning house. He yells at them saying the house is on fire and that they'll have to leave or be consumed, but they ignore him, believing they are "Safe as Houses." So then the father says to them that if they leave the house he will give them some candy which never loses its flavour. They listen to him and give into their desires, leaving the burning house. Once they are safe, he reveals that the candy was a lie, just as their belief in the safety of the house was a lie, but now they are safe. The lie of the candy was a fabrication that saved the children from the lie of the security of the burning house. The father is the Buddha, the children are the Sangha and the lie about the candy is the Dharma.Thus any philosophy, no matter how holy, is ultimately wide of the mark, but some philosophies will at least get you out of a burning house! Of course, some people want to ignore the Changes and stay in their burning houses for eternity, for whatever reason.

    Anything anyone says is automatically a lie, unreal, because words cannot express ultimate reality (see Lao Tzu 14, 22, 24, 36, 56, 63 & 70) any more than stepping on a map of the ocean will get your foot wet.

    -HKP
     
  15. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    Nice reply HK :D

    I always liked that story its from the lotus sutra if i remember correctly. What perhaps is even more relevant to the present discussion is that in the story the father entices his children out by promising them various types of 'toys' according to their likes and dislikes but once they are out he gives them all the same 'best' type of toy (NB in the story these toys are actually carriages, cultural differences eh? :D). It would seem then that it may be beneficial to not get too attached to our imaginary carriages because at the end of the day if your too busy focusing on what you imagine something should be like you might just miss what it is really like.

    And just so Im not completely plagiarising you HK I heard a Christian Mystic recount a story with a similiar morale once which I found quite on the mark something along the lines of this...

    The disciple said to the master "What is the greatest obstacle to uniting with God?"
    And the master replied, "The greatest obstacle is the very concept of God".
    The disciple was suprised and asked "But master how can we even approach God if we have no concept of Him?"
    The master nodded and answered, "Ahh but you are right we cannot approach Him without having some concept of Him. However, the ass you ride back to your home is not your home. Once you arrive at the entrance to your home you do not take the ass inside but instead you abandon it and enter on your own two feet."
     
  16. HK Pedestrian

    HK Pedestrian New Member

    Yes!

    You are correct that the story I told was from the Lotus Sutra. My "candy" paraprase was because I'd forgotten the exact "skillful means" from the story and I made one up on the spot, perhaps skillfully, perhaps not. :confused:

    This concept about the ultimate futility of concepts is very Taoist, Buddhist, Christian, Hindu, Jewish, you name it. They are all methods (at some level) from different cultures to describe not really being able to describe Truth with words.

    So what do we do? "It is true that the desire to end desire is a desire, but it is a desire that leads to the end of desire." We should work on ourselves and not worry so much about if other schools are "pure" or not. That is why I like the martial arts so much. If some fundamentalist tries to tell me to my face that what I'm doing is "impure" or "of the devil" I always have the option of saying "When you can do what I can do, then maybe I will listen to you. Until then, you are just trying to sell me something." Physical skill takes the guesswork out of philosophy, someone with kung fu (real kung fu, not the sweaty, "Ultimate Fighting" Western version) has actually done something with their life, actually shown some discipline and some ability in mindfulness.

    "Sticks and stones will break my bones, but names will never hurt me..."

    Cheers,
    -HKP
     
  17. hwardo

    hwardo Drunken Monkey

    :D

    Yay! The croud cheers... Nice post, H.K.
     

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