Taoism , Buddhism and MA

Kanei Uechi of Uechi -ryu( a very hard style) died at around 80, gichin Funakoshi of shotokan died at about 90, Chen man Ching was about 70..it's more genetics and lifestyle than anything else

 

Soggycat,
I have seen many external masters who are still fit. The father of the Gracie brothers was 92 when i saw him beat up his son. I have heard a Shaolin master say that if you practice solely external MA your skill and health will vanish at around 50-60 years old, but if you practice Chi Kung and the like your skill will never diminish.

I agree that this discussion is counter productive, I practise Tai Chi Chuan and love it. There are different pros and cons to each style and both can end in health at old age, the injuries you mentioned may have come about through ill practice, but I don't know.

 

This is the problem with this forum imo - people are so desperate to be right they are prepared to ignore historical fact and write any old crap to justify that desire:
If you were a novice reading the above you might take it as a knowledgable person stating a well-known fact, yes?
Here are the 'facts':
The Boxer rebellion took place c.1900 (it did go on in one form or another for a few years, but was basically over by 1911 when it began the slide into further conflicts and ultimately the 'People's Revolution'):woo:
Yang Cheng Fu died in 1936

Hmmm. Let's review that again kids...
Boxer Rebellion - 1900
Yang Cheng Fu dies - 1936

So from this we can conclude one of the following points - take your pick :
1.)Yang Cheng Fu was such an amazing martial artist he managed to time travel back to fight in the boxer uprising and returned to 1936 to die.
2.) The Boxer rebellion actually took place in 1936, but Chinese history was changed to protect the reputation of Cheng Fu after he got shot while eating a double burger with cheese in the Kowloon Wimpy bar. (he was distracted by that 'great american flavor' mmm those pickles sure are good)
3.) As in all good chinese kung fu movies the heroes always take ages to die... Yang Cheng Fu hung his out for more than thirty years.
4.) Just like in 'Crouching Tiger' Cheng Fu was able to slow his breathing down and delay his death for many years.
5.)The original assertion is bull and Yang Cheng Fu was actually a big fat bloke who died of a heart attack. (Going by the contents of most junk food, I'd call that 'unnatural causes' lol) Of course that can't be possible, Taiji being so good for your health and all, so probably not likely this last one...:woo:
I'm going to do my best not to look at any more posts to this thread now as I'm in danger of suffocating from the stink of 'Bovine Excreta' lol
I wish you all learning and enlightenment
N :woo:

 

Still ranting into space....

And lastly - Cheng Man Ching died of alcohol poisoning - that has nothing to do with 'genetics' imo!!
N

 

Interesting posts Taiji Butterfly, you certainly have a way with words

 

You have to forgive me, this is a really long thread and I haven't read it all yet, but I'll go back and do that directly after this post.

1stly, I am a ch'an buddhist myself ( as in a shaolin buddhist) and I have to say that that your take on our beliefs is really uninformed.
Buddhism does not subscribe that life on earth is hell ( as opoosed to say...christianity for example ) , but more akin to a spritual test ground where we stay until we get the growth for how ever long it takes us. You see the idea with reincarnation is more scientific than eosteric in that we believe ( at most scholarly levels) that the unembodied spirit has a certain vibration which changes through our karmic relations with our enironment, thought and action and intereaction and intent all being a large part of this.
If you can't get your spirit to vibrate at the "even" rate to the rest of the universe ( god/ heaven or whathaveyou) then you get to through the laws of physics have your energy continue to circulate until it is tuned to permeat / ride in another body ( where conciousness and " soul" is produced when a certain frequency of energy ( abound in our world and moving in clusters as energy does by standards and laws of physics ) meets cell growth ( whicjh occurs at the base of your neck in your cns ( central nervous system ) at a specific stage of development......... called conception........ allowing us another round to trade some more qi ( life energy / life breath ) through our experiences and travels to try for another assimilation into nirvana ( heaven) .
This is physics and this energy has been measured ( most recently through nanotechnology ) as having capacity to be ommitted by humans/ absorbed and changed in terms of frequency and our non tangible environment ( the conduit for all of these exchanges ) has one of its own again.

A thereavadan buddhist ( as in your Dalai lama and crew ) have the ultimate goal of through following the 8 fold path, precepts etc and practicing life according to the sutras ( which you can find in abundance at www.russbo.com) to cause themselves the end of life balance where they themselves can assimilate into that nirvana. As shaolin / chan busddhistsa however, we have a slightly different take ( being of the warrior class of buddhist) that because we can and benevolence is a characteristic of a compassionate heart ( com from the word companion / compadre / in company and passion meaning literally to suffer , so in combo meaning we suffer with you but from a universal perspective as opposed to a perceived human / ego driven one ) , once we acheive our own enlightenments and respective nirvana, we will bench it and do our best to bring you to yours.

In shaolin there are 3 gems to honour , abide by and acknowledge at all times ( though we are allowed to be humanly hopeless on it as often as we need to and can personally acknowledge .

1. dharma / doctrine ( scripture and teachings )
2. sangha ( community)
3. gongfu ( on the grains of precuring best health and giving ones best effort to continue and expand the good that has been done, the opposite being a great fall in intrapersonal karma)

We have no intention to hurt anyone at all to be honest and as a rule, 99.9 % of the time go to lengths not to. The gongfu and comvbat thing came about though way back in fuedal china when it was impossible to "save " or assist a person if they were going to die before they got a chance to experience enough growth and enlightenment through their experiences to matter. ( EXCUSE THE CAPS LOCK HAV ING FILTER DRAMAS NOT YELLING >>>>>>>)

BUT THAT WAS THEN AND THIS NOW THESE DAYS NOT LIVING THROUGH FUEDAL EXISTENCE< YOU WILL BE EXTREMELY HARD PRESSED TO FIND A BUDDHIST USING ANY VIOLENCE AT ALL THAT IS NOT TRHOUGH DIRECT DEFENCE PURPOSES> WE ARE A PEACEFUL SCHOOL OF THOUGHT AND EQUATE THAT ALSO TO PART OF OUR ATTEMPTS AT PRECURRING OUR GOALS AND BI_PRODUCT OF OUR ENLIGHTMENT WHICH IS EXPRESSED IN ALL FACETS OF OUR BEHAVIOUR AND LIFESTYLES AND MODES OF OPERATION>

DAOSIM ALSO HAS PRICIPALS OF CHI AND TO UNDERSTAND THAT QI IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THAT ENERGY MEETS MATTER< IS A REASON WHY I CAN"T AGREE WITH YOUR TAKE ON THAT EITHER> QI IS NATURE AND RELYS ON THE NATURE OF ENERGY> THINK ABOUT THAT>
BTW : WHO DOESN"T WANT TO LIVE LONG ANYWAY??? LONGEvITY ASPIARTIONS ARE A HUMAN TRAIT< AND IT THINK YOU"LL FIND NO MATTER WHAT BELIEF SYSTEM A PERSON SUBSCRIBES TO < UNLESS THERE IN IMMENSE AND IMMEDIATE GREAT SUFFEREANCE < THEY"D MORE OFTEN THAN NOT LIKE TO LIVE A LITTLE LONGER>

IT"S FUNNY THAT YOU MENTION WUDANG DAOIST MONKS HERE and IN THIS CONTEXT, DID YOU KNOW THAT LAo TSZU AND BUDDHA REPUTEDLY MET ON WUDANG TO EXCHANGE PHILOSOPHIES WITH HOPES OF ENDOWING PEACE ON THEIR COUNTRY MEN?? SOUNDS MUCH TO MUCHNESS WITH SHAOLIN PERSPECTIVE REALLY< AND CONSIDERING SHAOLIN ? CHAN BUDDHISM IS A CULMINATION OF BOTH DAOIST AND CONFUCIST THOUGHT AND IDEAS IT'S REALLY NOT SO SURPRISING THAT SIMILARITIES CAN STILL BE DRAWN>


I APOLOGISE FOR THE LONG POST MYSELF AND HOPE THIS HELPS YOU GAIN A NEW PERSPECTIVE OR LVL OF CLARITY AND ? OR OBJECTION>

AMITOPHO AND CHEERS TO ALL WHO READ

BLOOMING LOTUS

 

Blooming Lotus I hope you wont mind me addressing a few issues with your message.

1. The Dalai Lama and his crew are not from a Theravadin tradition they are from the distinctly Mahayana/Vajrayana tradition of Tibet. They are no more Theravadin than other Mahayana school (i.e. all Mahayana schools in theory 'contain' the Theravadin approach and more). I thought this was common knowledge amongst Buddhists.

2. The explanation you give for rebirth (rebirth is the term usually used by Buddhists as opposed to reincarnation because of the differences between the Brahmanic doctrine of atman which refered to [i/]reincarnation[/i] and the Buddhist doctrine of anatta (no soul) which refuted it) does not seem at all scientific but more like pseudo-science i.e. using scientific terms with little understanding of their meaning. For example "This is physics and this energy has been measured (most recently through nanotechnology)" what nanotechnology/study are you referring to here? I was under the impression that nanotechnology was still at a majoritively theorotical stage... Could you present your theory clearly with reference to the scientific studies that have proved what you claim?

3. If the 3 Gems you give are accurate then your schools version of Shaolin Buddhism is very different from most Ch'an Buddhist schools Ive ever heard of... or for that matter any other Buddhist school. The 3 Jewels in practically every other Buddhist tradition are 1. the Dharma, 2.the Sangha and 3.the Buddha (and in the Tibetan tradition they add a fourth... the Lama). I mean the 3 Jewels/Gems are what Buddhists go for refuge in during their ordination ceremony, Ive never heard of a Buddhist text that says I go for refuge in the "gung fu". Are you sure the Buddha is not one of the Gems in your schools version of Ch'an Buddhism?

Your right that soggy gave a rather inaccurate portrayal of Buddhism however I would be interested in your answers to these points above given that you are trying to clear up misconceptions.

 

Just a twopenny point to keep the flames glowing....
It depends on what sutra or school you are coming from but roughly, here are some ideas:
3 treasures
The Buddha (the enlightened state/person/teacher, fundamental lifestate of all)
The Law (the teaching of above/sutras/workings of the universal lifeforce)
The Sangha (the community of Buddhists, also priests/monks/laity)

Some Taoists have a '3 Treasures'
Chi (life energy, breath, wind, basic energy)
Jing (essence, body's fluids, physical expression of Chi)
Shen (spiritual energy, psychic, mental expression of Chi)

(Different teachers and schools define the meanings of the above differently. I am basing my comment on the most common versions I have come across. 'Jing' is the most contentious as it gets mixed up with 'ching' and 'jin' frequently)
N

 

You left out gung fu in that top list Taiji Butterfly...

 

OO silly me... lol