Taoism , Buddhism and MA

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by soggycat, Feb 5, 2004.

  1. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Hi Taiji butterfly

    The idea of 'Taoism' and being a 'Taoist' is actually a bit of an 'in joke' because there really can't be such a thing lol
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2004
  2. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    the first line of the Tao Te Ching (book of Tao) reads:
    "The Tao that can be named, is not the Tao,
    The Name that can be described is not the eternal name"
    (or something like that)
    How can you be an "ist" of the indescribable?
    "Taoism" is kind of being true to yourself, your nature and the ineffable nature of the Great Universe - how can that have orders and rules? It can't - hence no "taoism" or "taoists" lol
    Don't be sad, be yourself lol
    N
     
  3. reikislapper

    reikislapper see you on the flypaper

    Hello Nigel

    It's so good to see that you haven't lost your touch with your replies lol :D :D :D .
    I will think of some questions when I read this lot again :love:
    lisa xx
     
  4. soggycat

    soggycat Valued Member

    This is incorrect......and a myth likely to be propagated in the West ...just like the other myth that Damo brought Kung Fu to China from India.

    Chang San Feng was a Shaolin master who left Shaolin Temple, settled in Taoist Wudang Mountain / Temple, learnt and attained the Tao then incorporated Taoist " Go with the Flow " ideas into a new style called Tai Chi.

    Please be aware that most " scholars" Chinese or otherwise ,that you speak of DO NOT PRACTICE Internal Martial Arts and their knowledge is at best academic.

    Chen style is just a derivative of original Chang San Feng. Please be aware that apart from Tai Chi, Bagua, Hsing I , Liu He Ba Fa ( Water Boxing) there are many many other esoteric Internal styles that come from Wudang but are not popular or some have died out due to unsuccessful knowledge transmission ( secret teachings)

    If you should visit a Taoist temple , and yes there's one in AShfield and Glebe for those in Sydney....you will see Chang San Fengs altar and it pays respects to him as THE Tai Chi founder
     
  5. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    Soggy Cat
    Please provide actual evidence of Chang San Feng's existence other than hearsay and website claims...
    If you can do that I will happily agree with you ....and you will be the foremost oriental scholar in the world today lol
    N
     
  6. serious harm

    serious harm New Member

  7. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    Interesting articles Serious.
    They probably add to the confusion rather than resolve it though lol
    No one knows the truth and probably no one ever will for sure....
    N
     
  8. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member


    Thanks TB

    I guess I was thinking a bit too linnear and was taking the words at face value to describe following/follower of such a philosophy :eek:
    Good reply, like you say it's indescribable

    Cheers mate
    stay happy :)
     
  9. serious harm

    serious harm New Member

    I just am open to most theories. Zhang San Feng or otherwise. I listen to all theories even if I might disagree. IMO IMA is martial arts combined with qigong and meditative practices. And possibly some TCM knowledge.
     
  10. soggycat

    soggycat Valued Member

    The connection of Chang San Feng to Tai Chi is so well established in Chinese culture that it is accepted without question . CSF wrote TCM journals as well as other Taoist scriptures, off course you wouldn't know about them because it's not available in English.
    You asked for actual evidence.
    What did you want me to show you? A birth certificate? A passport with a photo? He is from the 12-13th Century.

    How do you prove Jesus is Jewish ?
    Yet majority of people will not question this fact.
    Whether you believe in Jesus is another matter.

    How do you prove Genghis Khan existed ?
    For goodness sake even his final burial place is kept secret and today remains a major archaelogical challenge to uncover it.

    History records the Picts were the original inhabitants of the British Isles ?
    Show me some actual evidence besides stick, stones and pots please.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picts#History
     
  11. soggycat

    soggycat Valued Member

    Nzric,
    No worries....many people are unaware of this also.
    Here's some interesting reading :

    http://www.taichiworldwide.com/what2.htm

    Paragraph 13:
    The founder of Tai Chi Chuan was one of the monks who made
    it past the line of no return and out through the gates of the
    Shaolin temple. His name was Chang-San Feng


    http://www.egreenway.com/taichichuan/chang1.htm
    One tradition claims that Master Chang San-Feng was born at midnight on April 9, 1247 AD,near Dragon-Tiger Mountain in Kiang-Hsi Province in the southeast of China. He is said to have been a government official in his youth, learned Shaolin martial arts whileliving in the Pao-Gi Mountains near Three Peaks (San Feng), and then living for scores
    of years as a Taoist hermit and sage in the Wu-Tang (Wudang) Mountains.


    http://www.shaolininstitute.com/tai_chi_history.htm

    Paragraph 4:
    In the late 1400’s Shaolin master Chang San Feng left the temple. He felt the self defense techniques that had evolved were too hard, using to much brute force. Heading for the Wu Tang Mountains Chang sought to soften the Shaolin techniques. One day while practicing, Chang noticed a fight between a crane and a snake.


    ________________________________________________________________
    There are many many other such articles indicating Chang San Feng was a Shaolin expert first before realising he was doing it “all wrong” and using too much effort before designing Tai Chi in Taoist Wudang Mountain Temple incorporating yielding, soft, and Wu Wei principles.

    Having said that some people in China don’t believe Chang San Feng had anything to do with Shaolin.

    It is interesting that that Dong Hai Chuan’s custom was not to teach Bagua to anyone who wasn’t first a Master of one other style. Most of his early disciples were Shaolin masters before they converted to Internal Arts.

    I guess you got to do it wrong (EMA) before you can appreciate the right way (IMA)
     
  12. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    This is the main problem in Chinese culture!! lol :bang:
    Accept nothing without question if you want to learn. Please don't think I'm being beligerent here I actually do believe in CSF, but who or what he actually was cannot be proved or known now... only believed....
    Well, much is available in English already, but I have no doubt there is much more and it will all be as difficult to verify as the presently available stuff. I'd be happy to be wrong on this, but I'm not holding my breath...:bang: Many writings are attributed to him, but as I said earlier it is common practice for later writers to attribute their own works to an ancestor or immortal to lend weight to what they are saying. The content may be sound, but authenticity and authorship is often doubtful. Please don't assume my knowledge of CSF is limited - his classics are the ones I tend to base my Taijiquan learning on!
    Yes please.
    Well I'd be impressed by that, sure. No, just anything more concrete than hearsay will do. There is nothing other than stories passed down. Again, that doesn't mean they have no value or nothing to teach us that follow... just that they are not and can never be the basis of a 'factual' argument. (there are no facts, only stories...)
    Easy. Unlike the Chinese, the Romans kept accurate census records. There is also an existing written record within 75 years of Jesus' death (the bible) and tertiary historical sources to support it. Nothing as accurate as that exists regarding CSF.
    More fool them. Personally Jesus' religion holds no interest for me.
    Majority beliefs are not always correct, that's why we have laws and governments to protect us from ourselves! The majority in this country would bring back hanging despite the numerous times that innocent people got hung in the past...
    True. Lets stick to CSF; any evidence yet?
    I'm not interested in doing that as I am not making any factual case based on his existence. Historians agree he did exist, unlike CSF's case.
    That doesn't mean he didn't exist just that his remains are hidden. Any idea where CSF was born or buried?
    Well of course there is nothing much more than that. In CSF's case there is not even that(!) just writings that are attributed to him. The same is true of Lao Tzu. Please don't misunderstand me here, I use the CSF classics and Tao Te Ching all the time, but I would never claim them as factual to argue against a more historically verifiable tradition (ie Shaolin Buddhism).
    Sorry if this discussion is causing you any pain. I just feel I need to point out that the root of your original premise is unstable....
    "Deviation of an inch at the outset results in a thousand miles at the end of the journey..."
    Cheers
    N :)
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2004
  13. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    Just to add I doubt much of what is claimed as 'fact' regarding Shaolin also. Chinese 'history' is in a right state thanks to the 'cultural revolution', the 'oral tradition' and the secrecy of families before that to name just a few factors....

    N
     
  14. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    The idea that external martial art is 'wrong' and internal martial art is 'right' has to be the most ill-informed statement I have heard here yet. (I'm sure I'm in for more treats in future tho lol)
    I thought you were extolling the virtues of Taoist thought here? That is so NOT the Taoist way. It's like saying night is 'good' and day is 'bad'. Do you think that? I think you urgently need to look into what 'internal' and 'external' training actually means.
    And why anyone thinks internet sites are a reliable source of information amazes me. There's more dross than truth on Taiji sites ime. Anyone looking in here for learning might end up thinking the world is flat and the moon made of green cheese.
    Thanks for making me actually 'laugh out loud' - You've made my day!
    Seriously, thankyou.
    N:cool:
    PS A friend showed me another post by you that talked about 'Indian Wu wei' (none such thing) and confusing 'non-violence'(ahimsa) with 'non-action' - different concepts. What you suggested was non-violence was actually extreme pacifism, again a different ideal. Non-violence allows for self-defence in extreme situations, it is a moral choice not a suicidal tendency. Just thought I'd post that comment here rather than track down the other thread. I hope you don't think I'm picking on you. I'm just trying to keep the stream of information as close to (accepted) truth as possible.
    Can I suggest you do your philosophical research from legitimate authors and scholars rather than websites? The state of the internet is such that any amateur or biased opinion can get published. The advantage of books is they have to be vetted for accuracy by editors and publishers, they also have to give their sources rather than just state facts without backing them up. The web will eventually get better and purify itself. Believe me please when I tell you that is my only motivation in challenging the erroneous nature of your information. I have nothing against you personally.
    N :)
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2004
  15. soggycat

    soggycat Valued Member

    http://sunflower.singnet.com.sg/~limttk/historg1.htm

    "Some have raised the question of Chang San Feng's existence as there is much legendary material about him. He is recorded by reliable historical documents such as the 'Ming Dynasty History' and 'The Ningpo Chronicles' which have no relation to martial arts literature as having existed and to have created Wudang Internal Boxing arts."

    More importantly :
    " . This is in line with the beliefs held at the Wudang Temple itself and one can find much old material pertaining to Chang San Feng there."
     
  16. add

    add New Member

    I agree that this view is misguided! I have seen many external martial artists that have great power, which increases in old age. My Sifu used to say that Chi is inseperable from technique, from moving or breathing for that matter, its just internal martial arts attempt to develop a different way of using it. Each expression is equally valid.

    I also agree that the cultural revolution has messed up Kung Fu history. Even the governments 'attempt' to revive it has left the spiritual and meaningful side still lost. :(
     
  17. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    One word: "website" (again)
    let's see (verifiable) text from the 'Ming Dynasty History' or 'Ningpo Chronicles'
    'much old material' (sounds like a reliable source that one!)
    whatever - the main premise of the original discussion still retains its original bias and is ostensibly an 'either or' dillemma having nothing to do with 'Taoism' or 'Buddhism' as such.
    When you say 'wudang' do you mean the modern one that is basically a political tool /tourist attraction? The original one was wrecked during the cultural revolution and many records destroyed as was the shaolin temple. I would closely question the genuiness of any document put forward as 'evidence' by the modern version of either institution. (Just to remind you, I personally do believe in CSF's existence - I am just questioning the 'proof' and 'fact' element of the original statements in light of the reputation of Chinese history and archaeology) Ultimately, who cares on a Saturday Night in Dulwich?
    N
     
  18. soggycat

    soggycat Valued Member

    ADD,
    It is commonly known that many Internal Masters are still in fit fighting form even when they are in 60's or 70's. Case in point , recent history is Ueshiba Morehei ( Aikido founder) who could still kick a.s.s. days before he died at 87 in 1969.
    http://www.aikido.com/founder.htm


    Conversely, as Exernal masters ( ie. Shaolin, TKD, Karate, Muay Thai) age, they are afflicted by some form of degenerative disease like arthiritis, Parkinson's, numbness in limbs or trembling , caused by years of harsh conditioning, pain tolerance, over exertion. It is no surprise that if you were to flick thru pages of a Kung Fu book, the Old Masters featured are usually Internal ones. External masters are probably in wheel chairs....paying the price for their ( wrong) " No Pain No Gain " policy of EMAs.

    Bruce Lee died at 32 ( blood vessel ruptured in his brain)....look how stress he appears !
    Mohammed Ali has Parkinson's Disease.

    On a personal level,the 2 old men in the IMA class I attend , both in their 60's now, had 30-40 years of Shaolin / Karate and even softer Wuing Chun, before switching to Tai Chi in the last 5 years.BOTH have Arthiritis. Both admit it comes from years of EMA.

    But our IMA Sifu who is also 60 has no such problem and springs around like a restless teenager.

    Infact, Tai Chi has been proven scientifically to help Arthiritis patients manage, and also help senior citizens gain a better sense of balance, avoiding broken bones thru falls. If you want the evidence for this I can pull it out from Google.
     
  19. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    That well known source of reliable evidence...

    Ip Chun still fit in his seventies
    Ip Man died in his eighties
    Yang Cheng Fu - 53 - Dead as the proverbial doornail... Any comment?
    Show me someone fighting fit at 120 and I'll believe the rhetoric of the Martial Arts. Claiming long life is a selling tactic pushed by both EMA and IMA. I am not saying there is no truth in this, but claims are usually exagerrated and eventually you will die regardless. Illness can affect anyone, seeking conflict and indulging anger weakens the immune system regardless of whether you practise IMA or EMA. That's where the Tao helps (if you can understand and follow it lol)
    Why do you have this maniacal urge to prove one thing over another?
    Both EMA and IMA have long-lived and short-lived proponents. Both have advantages and disadvantages.
    I teach and practice Tai Chi, but I also know that such an 'either/or' argument is pointless and counter-productive. When I was younger I would have bought into such stuff, now I am older I know that things are not so simple. Be honest with yourself, go inside in meditation and ask yourself what it is that you crave with this discussion.
    Respectfully
    N :)
     
  20. noblenicky

    noblenicky New Member

    YCF died during the Boxer Rebellion, not because of natural causes. No matter how much MA you do, bullets will still kill you.

    As well as cars, trains, and any freak accidents one can have inside and outside the house.

    Life does not relate to health related benefits. I think the IMA may give you good health, but not eternal life.
     

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