[Tang Soo Do] The Oldest TSD Form?

I read that Naihanji is the oldest form we practice, originating about 950 years ago. Pyong Ahn is about 150 years old, and some others are about 300. Then there's the modern ones like Chil Sung, which isn't even 20 years old yet. Anyone know any older forms we practice?

 

Try this link these is one of my instuctors site's http://davidjpraim.com/form_history.html

 

Nice link. One of them caught my eye.

O-Sip-Sa-Bow....400-500 BC

I've never heard of this form. I'm also amazed to see one that has been practiced since the BCE. Has anyone seen or know this form?

 

You can download a video clip at master Macs website

http://mchenry.homeip.net/TangSooDo/forms/index.htm

 

O Sip Sahbo is a 5th dan form. The true lineage of these forms is hard to discern, but you can be pretty certain that the higher forms are the older ones. As mentioned, Pyung Ahn and Chil Song are not old comparitively speaking.

 

Actually, the pinan / pyong ahn forms just cracked 100. They were created from 1901 to 1905 by Itosu Anko and introduced into the okinawan school system. The earliest record of naihanchi being performed publicly is about 1760.

Matt

 

i thought pyung ahn forms were 2000 years old

 

Not to get into any political issues, but essentially, they were made up for Okinawan schoolkids based on an earlier form. They later became the heian series in japan, and when the folks who founded TSD learned shotokan in college, they learned the pinans (before funakoshi changed the name), along with the rest of the shotokan curriculum. If you check out the 1926 curriculum as taught by Gichin Funakoshi, it will have a headscratching similarity to the TSD curriculum.

Matt

 

Very interesting history. Can I ask what your sources are? Did you hear this through studies in books, or from your school's teachers?

 

LOL - yes Chris many TSD masters will tell you this. Not true. There are some higher forms that are ancient, Pyung Ahn are not crazy old like that. however, the thought that some dude was performing Pyung Ahn Edan or some version of it well over 100 years ago is still a very moving this to me.

 

It's in a paper I wrote here:

http://home.comcast.net/~matthewabarnes/evolution.html

with the relevant paragraph being:

and the footnotes being:

Cummins, Michael E. “Soo Bahk Do Tang Soo Do and a Brief History of the Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan Federation.” Online. 11/26/01

http://www.soobahkdo.org/yuba-sutter/history.html

Kluzek, Erik “History of Chung Do Kwan and U.S.U. Tae Kwon Do Club ...” Online. 11/26/01

http://www.usu.edu/taekwond/history.html

Power Kix Karate “Power Kix Karate – History of Tae Kwon Do” Online, 11/26/01.

http://www.powerkixusa.com/history/history.htm

I hope that was helpful.


Matt

 

Thank you, Matthew. That was pretty in-depth.

 

I personally take offense at calling Tang Soo Do a Korean "Sport". I believe that is exactly why Hwang Kee stayed away from Tae Kwon Do. He wanted TSD to continue as an art, and I believe it has - in my experience anyways.

 

Point taken, I think that is a valid criticism. I will consider changing it.

Matt

 

i wasabout to say that. TSD is not in the olympics nor on tv like tae kwon do. i wouldnt not study a sport.

this is an art.end of story

 

Thank you. I am touchy about this from a very valid perspective. I hold a legitimate 4th dan in TKD as well as TSD. I have watched TKD develop into a more sensationalized sport event as TSD has remained the quiet cousin.

TSD does have tournaments, but they are not the focus as they are in most TKD organizations. Heck, I have a hard time being called a player when i am doing TKD too, but I have a hard time defending against that.

 

It's my understanding that as Gen. Choi has a 2nd or 3rd Dan black belt in Shotokan Karate, it's no surprise it has a big part within Tae Kwon Do. Grandmaster Hwang Kee - creator of Tang Soo Do, to my knowledge he didn’t have any Karate experience. He developed the art while in China. Although, there are some similar forms/techniques in TSD so it’s likely he referred to the Okinawa / Shotokan Karate while creating Tang Soo Do.

 

Actually Hwang Kee, like most Korean martial artists had Shotokan experience. However, when developing his school/style, he tried to incorporate the Chinese influences as well. This is evident in the higher level hyung in his school, adn many of the movements he practiced.

 

Thanks for clarifying. I never new he had Shotokan training. Do you know to what extent?

 

To be perfectly candid Homer, i am not certain where and when he received Shotokan training. This is one of the bones of contention. Some people say Hwang Kee learned the Pyung Ahn hyung out of a book, and other say he learned them while working out with various Shotokan stylists. Most of the martial artisists in Korea at that time learned Shotokan because that was all teh Japanese government would let them learn. I do know that the majority of Hwang Kee's formal training was Chinese.