Taking a step backwards

Discussion in 'Self Defence' started by Simon, Mar 27, 2016.

  1. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    I'm sure a lot of you have watched Trav's Fight Smart series and he does have some good stuff, but there's something in this video I'm not a fan of and it's the backwards step.

    Note. With this being a SD video there is some mild language.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ud2yo_sAQbg"]Best Fight Strategy - Self Defense Tactics and Tips - Win Fights Easily and DONT GET ARRESTED - YouTube[/ame]

    When I teach this I advise against the step backwards, as it's too passive for me. It allows the aggressor to step into the space you've vacated, which builds his/her confidence and I'd argue sets them up for another step in.

    When placing a hand on an aggressor's chest it's important not to leave it there, as it's a controlling measure.

    It's likely to trigger an aggressive response.

    I have no issue with the hand on the chest, but I stand my ground. It's like closing the garden gate. It's a message to stay out.

    It requires confidence, or at least an act of confidence and that strong push or guard should be enough to at least install some doubt as to whether the aggressor steps back in for a second go.

    Many years ago when in my 20s a colleague and I were on a housing contract and we had to attend a course on how to deal with irate or potentially physical tenants.

    The instructor said that if someone was in your face to take a step back.

    I argued that he was wrong for the reasons I've described above.

    My boss told me to keep quite.

    Just a few months later my colleague did as he was told, took a step back and got punched.

    I've has similar situations and never been punched.

    I recall a tenant right in my face. He'd had problems with his housing issue for years before I arrived. His wife had left him and I was to get the brunt of it.

    I stood my ground, very aware and by the time he'd finished I was in his house drinking tea.

    So in summary I'd argue that the backwards step isn't the best way to go.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2016
  2. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    I'm not a fan of steeping backward either for the reasons you mentioned. I also have a few other gripes with this video.

    1. Allowing someone into your space
    Allowing them in the first time is a mistake but mistakes happen. Creating distance and then letting them in a second time because you don't have a fence occupying the space is bad.

    2. Overly complex commands
    When your adrenaline is pumping and your brain isn't firing on all cylinders short commands like "back away" are easier to get out and less likely to be misheard by the people around. For example if it's loud and it's noisy maybe all they hear is ".......... I'm going to hit you."

    3. Saying you're going to hit someone
    At that point things haven't become a game of rock-em sock-em humans yet and you just levied a threat against someone. Under the Canadian Criminal Code with a half decent lawyer that could be enough to make a ruling in the other guy's favour especially if, as I already pointed out can happen with complex commands, someone misheard you.
     
  3. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    I recently used a step backwards to gain some more distance and keep the two "gentlemen" I was dealing with in range whilst also keeping out of their range.

    The difference being that I was using an improvised "tool" to control what was going on.

    The only other times I've used it has been early in the verbal phase and when they already have distance to cover, again just putting in a bit of extra distance so that they absolutely have to show intent to get at me. It's tended to be slightly backwards and off to the side and usually done so that it looks like I'm just shifting slightly and not going straight back.

    Anything closer though and I agree that going straight back could probably lead to problems.
     
  4. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

    For me, SD is a random attack so I would count myself lucky to have time to make these decisions and not have to just be in the chaos of a situation doing whatever needs doing.
    If I have got the time, for whatever reason, I dont like the idea of making a decision before its happened so if I go back or not will be decided according to the situation.

    What I try to do is line them up subtly using angles that puts me at the advantage to attack or defend,rapidly .There is a range where they can not miss and you cannot miss too, so an understanding of that is important ,I believe. An attempt to control that range is important. Being too close and in each others face can leave a person open to headbutts or throat grabs or losing sight of their hands ,in case they have a knife and go for it...of course they can be open to those things too...grabbing them by the throat and attacking etc.
    Being able to attack from a range they think they are safe at is important too.

    I think being able to hit whilst going back at angles is essential and might need to be done or if going in or staying in and hitting ,then an immediate control or defense of some kind should be factored in...people don't just stand there and let you hit them, and things miss and go wrong.

    Hand fighting and clinch are important for me and from what I have learnt because if I can control their hands, especially in a pre-emtive manner,they cant use them to hit or get a weapon. I don't like my hands floating out in front of me if I can help it ,in their range, because they can be taken by them and they could control my hands.
    Of course it could all go wrong and then its "make it up on the spot" time. A more essential skill than any kind of tactic or move.
     
  5. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    SD doesn't have to be a random attack.

    Awareness should prevent the attack and that is where a strong brace or fence can assist.

    In the case shown in the video you do have time and as I've explained a step back can allow the aggressor to fill that space and re-engage.

    You don't rise to the level of your expectations, but rather fall to the level of your training.

    All too often I've heard people say, "I'd do this or that", well not if you haven't trained and drilled it you won't.

    Things will be random of course and I agree what happens next is a result of what signals you get from the aggressor, however, you can't decide to go "back in" with a technique you decide on that the time.

    It has to react with the immediacy of a shadow.

    Or as Bruce Lee said, "I don't hit, it hits all by itself".

    You've never agreed with any of the SD threads and that's fine, but this isn't about the random attack you mention.

    This is about preventing an attack that you can see coming.

    It's more about verbal and physical control and an understanding of human behaviour, rather than dealing with an onslaught that comes out of the blue.
     
  6. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    In that situation you don't.....but this is the least frequent occurring SD scenario, despite the fact it accounts for what seems like 99.9% of all courses and training offered

    Should you have a plan for this contigency? Absolutely yes....but if this is all you are preparing for your SD prep and training has a MASSIVE gap in it
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2016
  7. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    I think this needs to be the subject of my next video.

    I do a drill in class where one person deliberately shoulder barges another when walking past them.

    It's the job of the defender to turn, raise a non threatening guard and say, "Oh I'm sorry, my fault", or something similar.

    It sounds so simple, but I've found that students find it difficult after taking a whack that wasn't their fault.

    It's even harder when you brain is saying I'm going to smash your head in if you take a step forward.

    Edit. My students even when instructed to barge into me find the wind taken out of their sails when I turn and apologise, as it's sounds so genuine.

    It's said as though I walked into them while not looking what I was doing.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2016
  8. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    His video is actually pretty wrong on other counts, not the least one being that Pre-Emption in high threat situations is not an assault.

    At the range and in the scenario he is describing the fight is already on and his tactic is setting him up for a shot...a push away and a push back are both physical contact (in his terms "an assault", which further undermines his point) and will execute the same adrenal responses in the assailant, in this case the back step will likely add to the fight response

    The conditional "ultimatum" shows your hand - you do not TELL someone you will hit them, you either do it or you do not.
     
  9. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    In my Aftermath seminars I run scenarios based on real life situations, and they have alternate endings depending in the route taken - It is amazing how many people capitulate and back down when they should be fighting, but even more amazing how many fight when they should be placating!!

    Again this type of scenario - and I use one VERY similar to yours Simon - further illustrates that SP/SD and Martial Arts are NOT the same thing at all
     
  10. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Certainly in my younger days of pubs and nightclubs it's my experience that those who say they are going to hit you actually aren't.
     
  11. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Don't like the putting the hand on the chest. By the time you need to make physical contact, it is time to just attack. Putting a hand on the opponent's chest is a physical challenge IMO and escalates the situation.

    Don't like the "or I will hit you." My school teaches a short commanding thing like "back away" or - jeez just woke up - "stand back!" and you put your hands up with palms facing outward and what is a basic cat stance. It looks like you are in a non aggressive stance with your hands that way, but you are actually ready to block and strike if if need be.

    The step back.....hmmm. The way I have been taught is that you do the deescalation techniques before the person gets that close. By the time the person is in your face that way, it is probably time to attack. But I am going to ask my Sifu and clarify if I understood correctly. MAP has me asking my Sifu all sorts of questions!

    I just don't get in situations like that. I had a bit of a "heated discussion" with a neighbor the other day. But she stayed in her car while I talked to her. I was aware of thinking about body positioning and distance if she got out of her car. The car door and her seated position was a buffer.
     
  12. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    If you leave the hand there it'll certainly be recognised as a physical challenge, especially if you are dealing with the sort of person who has been hit since childhood.

    It can though be subtle. Imagine patting your hand down, as if getting a dog to sit.

    AAs long as you don't overdo it you have a more subliminal message being sent to the aggressor.

    He is being controlled, but not on a conscious level.

    Certainly something to be trained in class, as not all aggressors are created equal.

    That's good SD, or self protection to use Hannibal's terminology.
     
  13. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Oh good! Nice to hear you say this as this fits very nicely with what my school teaches.

    We do fall short of the sort of scenario training that Simon describes, but what they do teach seems to be in line with what a lot of people say about self defense approaches.

    We may not be at the level of JWT, Hannibal, or Simon level training, but I think my school seems to be just level or two below that as far as levels of self defense training go. Better than most from what I see in discussions on MAP. Not quite top tier, but far better than most.

    Wish I lived closer so I could do some of that scenario training though.
     
  14. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Train because you love it and for no other reason.

    We train differently perhaps, but not better or worse.

    I wish I had your fitness, balance posture etc.

    There are some damn good martial arts and martial artists, not all get in the ring though.

    I just enjoy the subject. It doesn't make me any better and I'm sure I'd be taken to school by many here who don't even do SD.
     
  15. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

    For me personally the worst SD situation is a random attack.
    A better case situation is seeing a build up and trying to avoid it, of course..if that's considered SD depends on what has gone on. Having an argument or some kind of build up that then goes physical could be said to be not SD or could be said to be SD depending on your view and what happens. It could just be fighting. A random attack from nowhere is definitely SD. No question.
    This is my view.

    In terms of 'do this or do that'...I want to be able to have as many things and be able to do the one that fits the situation. So im not implying I would do this or do that...I need freedom to do whatever needs doing and go with the situation..make it up on the spot...deal with mistakes...deal with things going wrong. I am not implying that there are only certain things to do or that nothing needs training. That would be a misinterpretation.

    To be fair I also do say 'if I have got time'....
     
  16. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    :topic:You know Simon, actually I DO train just because I love it and for no other reason! My goal was to improve my life through training and that is what training does for me- it has made me a better person in a myriad of ways. It is funny, because I have a reputation at my school for being so dedicated and training so much. And I am like I come here and train because it is what I love to do, so it isn't like a chore for me. It doesn't take discipline, it is like "works done- I get to go do what I love to do=train!"

    Things like actually knowing how to fight (hopefully) and self defense training are what I consider bonus side benefits that I get. And I do just enjoy the topic - like you do.

    That said, I think self defense scenario training like you do would really be fun and I WOULD love to do it if I had the chance. But - especially with new car payments now - I doubt I ever could afford to travel to a MAP meet. And I never hear of any of you coming to Southern California.
     
  17. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    It can be arranged Aaradia....I teach annually in the Bay Area and can always tie in a trip :)
     
  18. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Really? Seriously? I would LOVE that?:happy::hat: If you were in San Diego, I could show you around. It is a beautiful city! Can drive you around in my new car!
     
  19. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Sometimes MAP makes me smile.

    Think I'll do the happy dance.

    :banana::banana::banana:
     
  20. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

    Well, the police, fire brigade, ambulance service work on worse case scenarios and want to be able to deal with those situations even though they don't actually want those things to happen...it just makes perfect sense and no one questions them being fully prepared nor assumes that they don't work the simpler stuff either. Also statistics show that these worse cases don't happen as much...most police call outs are not dramatic arrests that get violent...most fire calls are not massive building burning down with loads of people trapped....terrorist attacks are actually rare compared to other things. These services take these very seriously and make sure the people dealing with these can do their jobs, if these happen.
    Working for a for worse case scenarios... makes perfect sense and means anything that happens that is less worse will hopefully be easier.
     

Share This Page