Hey everyone, I was just wondering if any of you karateka have had any experience with sparring against a grappling type martial art in which the opponent is always trying to take you down. I've been looking at some of the bjj take downs and other style's take downs too and they're pretty tricky. Before I looked into it I thought that it would be easy to defend against a takedown because they will always drop and go straight for your legs. I found that they have some pretty cool ways of getting you into a position where they can bring you down and lock you up in doing so. http://www.bjj.org/techniques/ this is one of the sites I was looking at. scroll down until standing techniques show up. How would you defend against a grappler coming in at you, as a karate practitioner? How does your style go about stopping a takedown? At my dojo we have certain movements we learn that are sort of anti-grab movements in which we either block/deflect the incoming grab or tackle/ shoot (I think its called) and quickly strike to a good target. I've never actually been in a situation where I've been against a gappler or wrestler so I wouldn't really know how the techniques work on them. Maybe you have though.
doesnt work. learn to sprawl. you might get lucky and get off a knee to the face (ala ignashov vs tomato can jap guy) but chances are you won't. if you want to learn how to "anti grapple" do what i did and cross train. your instructor will not be able t teach you how to defend against a grappler unless he is one. period. there are too many nuances to it that you just don't see from outside looking in.
You are correct, it's commonly called a 'shoot'. As for the best technique to prevent a shooting opponent, it's got to be a sprawl. It's a very simple move which has been proven to work time and time again. The mechanics behind the sprawl and very basic. It basicly involved the moving your hips back and dropping your weight ontop of the opponent as he comes in for the shoot.
Like Ikken, I recommend cross training in a grappling style. What you described is not a credible takedown defense, and even if you were learning good takedown defenses you aren't practicing against good grapplers. If you cross train in something like BJJ, judo, wrestling, sub wrestling, sambo, etc. you will learn good ways to defend against takedowns and throws (there are more takedowns than just shoot tackles) and you will get experience going live with decent grapplers.
Exactly! Plus it's good for the soul, experiencing the humility of becoming a true white belt again. I should know, I started Judo a month ago.
This is all true, but I can't "cross-train" so easily. My school doesn't offer much in the way of grappling and the only place in town that teaches grappling arts (judo, bjj, mma) costs quite a bit, and it would mean I belonged to two dojos, kind of weird and also quite a commitment. We don't train for grapplers in a tournament or something at my school either. If we do grappling, its only every so often and it's ground-fighting, on the mats. Or, if it's from standing, its supposed to be for self defense against some guy trying to take you down, not an experienced wrestler. Mainly, it's a karate school, but kung-fu, tai-chi, and jujutsu is part of the training. Although grappling is included in some of those arts, we mainly look at the striking aspects and some of the small joint locks, plus the application of them to a fight when we do jujutsu. I didnt explain it very well earlier, but the anti-take down self defenses we practice do work pretty well. Your not "blocking" somebody whos trying to come in on you. We do sort of a sprawl, but not to full extent, we don't always go all the way to the ground. It includes movement of your hips and feet, and shifting of weight, but from there it goes to striking, which is something we can do. Honestly, I could see it applying well to what its for and it would work most of the time, but I don't think it would do much against somebody who knows what they're doing. I think next summer I'm going to find some sort of short course that goes into jujutsu or bjj or something, just so that I'll have a little more experience. This was my plan for this last summer, but I only saw a few places and they didnt offer any summer courses. I dont know really what you guys do to cross-train when you go to a school that teaches one martial art (primarily).
I can understand what your saying; some people just dont have the time to cross train, be it the family, or the job. But if your interested in learning grappling techniques you can normally attend seminars. I know a group of guys who do Aikido; whilst most of them do not have the time to attend grappling classes, they still do like to go to grappling seminars and learn what they can from them.
It can be difficult. I always wanted to cross train back when I was in love with Shotokan, but I found it difficult finding the time and money. Now I am older and wiser, I just do what pleases me. I quit Karate for a while to do some Muay Thai. After a year and a half, I've pretty much quit that and am trying my hand at Judo. I think there's enough to be getting on with in that to keep me occupied for a while!
goju, if you arent practicing this move against people who are actually trying to take you down and beat you, it isnt worth practicing. because when the faecal matter hits the fan, your body turns to pure instinct. it wont use a move that its never actually done in the same kind of pressure environment. if you ARE practicing this takedown against a guy who is literally charging at you and attempting to pick you up and slam you, then ignore what I wrote. if not, you will have to either bite the wallet and go to a grappling class (most judo dojos are really quite cheap) or continue to wonder whether it would actually work.
Like Ikken has said; you really do have to drill the sprawl technique (any technique for that matter) to make it an instinctive move, otherwise your just wasting your time. There are many sprawling drills you can perform to get you used to the performing of the technique, but again, it is useless without someone to drill it with.
The only advice to listen to when if you want to remain standing. Here's a drill we use at my dojo, we have a guy doing thai pads with a shooter waiting just behind the person holding the pads. After a few combo's on the pads the shooter then shoots for the legs without the striker being told when, the person working pads then sprawls hard and works to get his feet back under him and in a better position for striking while the shooter is trying to get the take down. We also kick and sprawl, hitting pads again, then sprawl, repeat both sides until you puke.
When someone goes for a shoot or a tackle, just side-step and let him charge past you. Going to intercept with a knee or elbow seems kind of risky, since the attacker is still getting a hold of you. I watched some UFC footage of Royce Gracie, and almost everyone he went up against tried to move straight back when he went for a shoot. If they had moved the side instead, he never would've gotten them.
it is very hard to simply dodge a shoot. even these days people dont dodge them- you're sure that after more than a decade they just havent figured out how to sidestep?
"How would you defend against a grappler coming in at you, as a karate practitioner? How does your style go about stopping a takedown?" Practice grappling in your karate class. There are no shortcuts here. If you only train with striking rules, no grappling allowed, you won't be able to stop a take-down. Even a trained grappler won't be able to stop a good take-down sometimes, so you need to be good at ground fighting because the fight may hit the ground. You don't need to have a BJJ black belt, but you need to know basic escapes from the ground. A good karate class has to teach that as part of the karate curriculum.
Side stepping rarely, if ever works. You do not see it in the UFC, or grappling matches because sprawling is the best solution to stop even the best shoot. By side stepping, you easily set yourself up for a single leg takedown.
