So... I have a few questions. I knew the answer to some of these at one point, but Im having a brain fart and I cant seem to find my notes. Plus I dont trust the websites google has offered me. -What ryuha did Takamatsu Sensei have menkyo kaiden in? -What ryuha was Takamatsu Sensei a soke of? -Did he teach all of his students the same ryuha? -What happened to Aikimoto Sensei's students? In fact, what happened to all of the upper echelon's students (Sato, Kimura, etc) -Is it possible that any of them were taught different versions of ryu or even just different henka? -Who trained with Takamatsu Sensei (buyu)? Thanks :bow1:
My answers are from a Genbukan slant, but i will do my best Banpen. -What ryuha did Takamatsu Sensei have menkyo kaiden in? LOL, have no idea of all of them, but would definately say the 9 well known of plus others with other names in the times of their teachers such as I believe Shinden Muso Ryu by Ishitani also Shoken ryu maybe(not 100% sure on these though) -What ryuha was Takamatsu Sensei a soke of? Same as above but their is a slew of Kukishin ryu variants that are tied with the Amatsu Tatara, besides the known 9 you could also add Shinden Tatara ryu, Tenshin Hyoho, etc. -Did he teach all of his students the same ryuha? I don't think so, in the early days he stressed Kukishin ryu but later Togakure ryu towards his latter years. - What happened to Aikimoto Sensei's students? Akimoto Sensei I believe stayed a student of Takamatsu Sensei until his death. I don't know if he had any other students, there is rumor he taught Judo's Mifune some Gikan ryu(source is the book Jujutsu by Tanemura Sensei, plus oral teaching by him), It is also said that Akimoto Kok, his son received all his materials. In fact, what happened to all of the upper echelon's students (Sato, Kimura, etc) Er, they passed away and gave all their teachings to Tanemura Sensei, but also Sato had many students and his daighter officially leads his teachings. - Is it possible that any of them were taught different versions of ryu or even just different henka? Anything is possible, but Takamatsu Sensei was known for changing names and giving to different people, may to be insured that the teachings survived, I would not say he was henka happy though. - Who trained with Takamatsu Sensei (buyu)? George Kohler has researched this pretty well and could probablly give a great answer here, but for starters there was Kakuno who studied Takagi Yoshin ryu with him and Ishitani and branched off.
Fudoshin Dojo posted I was once told by a hight ranking member of the Genbukan that Shokan ryu was another name for Gikan Ryu. Do we know if theres any truth in this? Garth
Thanks for the quick response. I'm also interested in the question Garth asked if anyone knows.. Thanks
re Hello Banpen Fugyo, I've been thinking about this a lot lately, but in regards to Takagi Yoshin ryu specifically rather than all ryuha generally. One detail that stood out for me recently was kaigo kudaki from TYR. It the Bujinkan, its done with uke attacking with hagai jime. However, at the Ueno Takashi memorial taikai, Kaminaga Shigemi's group showed it with uke attacking with kakae jime. Both the Bujinkan and Kaminaga Shigemi's group continue the Mizuta line. A very small difference, but an interesting one.
There was a Genbukan Bufu newsletter that was giving a story about Akimoto Sensei and I believe it named him involved in three ryu-ha which it listed Gikan ryu, Shinden Muso Ryu, and then it said ShoKEN ryu which ran through his family line.
To the OP (and slightly detracting from the thread) but Kimura Sensei is pictured in the original post and not Takamatsu Sensei - have I got that right?
(grouped by teacher) Ishitani Kukishinden Happo Bikenjutsu Hontai Yoshin Takagi-ryu jujutsu Hontai Kukishin-ryu bojutsu Gikan-ryu koppojutsu Tenshin Hyoho Kukishin-ryu Shinden Tatara-ryu taijutsu Shinden Kito-ryu bojutsu Hontai Kijin Chosui-ryu Kukishinden dakentaijutsu Mizuta Hontai Takagi Yoshin-ryu jujutsu/jutaijutsu Toda Shinden Fudo-ryu dakentaijutsu Shinden Fudo-ryu taijutsu Togakure-ryu ninpo Gyokko-ryu kosshijutsu Koto-ryu koppojutsu Kumogakure-ryu ninpo Gyokushin-ryu ninpo * Amatsu Tatara - I am not sure where this came from or which version this refers to. I speculate that it might have come from Takamatsu sensei's father since he taught him how to read the kamiyo moji. Kito-ryu jujutsu - It appears that Takamatsu Sensei taught Kimura Masaji Sensei this school. I don't know how much Takamatsu Sensei learned but it looks like it might be from Ohashi while he was in China *According to Hatsumi Sensei, but before 1978 (approximately) it was not listed on Hatsumi Sensei's list. Some were different and some were the same. Akimoto, it seems, didn't have any students except his son. Expect for Hatsumi Sensei, I believe all have passed away. Yes. We do know that this was the case with Gikan-ryu. We also know that Takamatsu Sensei also changed the names with several of the schools. It is getting late and I will have to do some searching since my hard drive is dead. I will try to answer this tomorrow.
Hakuun ryu According an inteview in Kwoon Magazine 2005 with Kacem Zoughari, Takamatsu sensei also studied Hakuun ryu with Ishitani sensei... outside the menkyo kaiden and soke system...
Lots of info George, thank you. I suppose I should correct myself and fix my punctuation though. I meant: What happened to Sato's students, Kimura's students etc I realize that these original students under Takamatsu Sensei have died. And to whoever asked, yes that is Kimura, not Takamatsu
Correction Not Shinden Muso ryu, but Mushin Muso Ryu, this school was also known by this name in the time of Ishitani Matsutaro for the school we more commonly know today as Tenshin Hyoho Kukishin ryu.
Sato and Kimura handed down their traditions to Tanemura Sensei. I don't think Kimura Sensei was teaching anyone else when Tanemura Sensei met him. As for Sato Kinbei Sensei his daughter runs his organization, I think there is even a guy in Georgia that used to be a student of Sato Kinbei. Look here for Sato Kinbei's website ran by his daughter. www.jujutsu.com
(Alphabetic order) Akimoto Fumio 秋元文雄 Fujitani Masatoshi 藤谷昌利 Fukumoto Yoshio Hatsumi Masaaki 初見良昭 Iida Tatsusaburo 飯田辰三郎 Iwami Nangaku 岩見南学 Kiba Koshiro 木葉幸四郎 Kimura Masaji 木村正治 Matsubara Kahei 松原嘉平 Ohashi Masaaki 大橋正明 Ren Kenmei 連啓明 Sato Kinbei 佐藤金兵 Suzuki Kazumi 鈴木一美 Takamoto Iesato 高本家郷 Takeuchi Nobuyoshi (Kikakusai) 竹内信義（鬼角斎） Tatsuta Yasuichiro 辰田安一郎 Ueno Takashi (Chosui) 上野貴（澄水） There were others, but they were taught at a nearby college during the 1950’s.
