Taijiquan Full Contact Competition

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by Sandy, Jul 15, 2006.

  1. cullion

    cullion Valued Member

    I dunno why everybody is focussing on the kicking and punching so much. The particular type of competition here allows (in fact as I understand the rules used, encourage) people to use clinching and throws to put their opponent down and/or off the mat whilst being careful not to have your balance taken so the other person can do it to you. I thought that was pretty Tai Chi ? (at least on the level that we can all see on a video).

    In my limited understanding, styles of Tai Chi other than Wudang teach striking methods. Now fair enough, these might involve palms or other ways of using the hand which you can't really do with a boxing glove on.

    But, these sorts of competitions formats allow you to try out so many things which are important, like your level of endurance, your speed, your ability to move in an evasive way into a good position, your ability to spot the moment when somebody's balance is vulnerable, smother strikes to 'clinch' and control the other persons movement all whilst they are helpfully doing their utmost to knock your block off, possibly using a style you have never encountered before etc.. I really don't see why they are seen as unhelpful to developing good Tai Chi.

    Now, the desire to practice the techniques which you can't do with boxing gloves on is fair enough, but if never using gloves meant that you didn't get to practice the above things at a high level of intensity, wouldn't that also be detrimental ?

    And if you can see the value of this type of thing, wouldn't it be unfair to judge people by the standards of the lighter practice done without gloves when they are in the much more frightening and intense situation of somebody (possibly somebody very well built from a completely different 'hard' style) trying to knock their block off ?
  2. cullion

    cullion Valued Member

    Looks more like Boxing hands and Karate (rather than Muay Thai) kicking to me :love:
  3. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    "Either/Or" debates are dualism - not what Taiji is about for me Cullion.
    It's human nature to go that way and sometimes I get into it.
    Right now I'm not doing it.
    As I've said many times, if you want to train that way, go for it, by all means. I don't particularly value it as a large part of my training, but I do put gloves on and go for it on occasion - I just view its value, drawbacks and purpose differently to you.
    It is actually okay for practitioners of the same art to have differing opinions and training methods btw...
    ...there really is nothing to defend here imho.

    Some questions for you:
    If you did your form movements wearing boxing gloves and a headguard - does it feel the same? Try it. Would you be centred in the same way?
    What about doing neigung exercises?
    Do you feel the same wearing gloves and headguard as you do walking down the street? What is your emotional state, your attitude?
    Just something to think about and experiment with, is all - have fun...
  4. cullion

    cullion Valued Member

    I am a beginner. When I do the moves of the form, my attention is on trying to get the 'weighting' in each leg right, and ensuring my stance is not putting the wrong kind of pressure (i.e. torque rather than 'hinge') on my knees. With what I am doing at the moment I don't think whatever I wore on my hands or head would make much difference.

    I don't know anything about them so I can't give an informed opinion.

    To be honest, when I'm walking down the street the thought of being attacked doesn't really cross my mind. I live in a quiet country town and am too old to stare out random chavs or try to pick up their girlfriends.

    The greatest likelihood I face of somebody hitting me or dumping me on the floor occurs when I put on that gear in preparation for sparring in class. Whenever I put that gear on in class ready to spar I certainly get fearful and feel a surge of adrenalin. I have had people 'have a go' at me in pubs and on the street at night, and it was different in that in real life I had less time to worry about it, and stamina was less of an issue (the first telling blow or shove basically ended it). In every 'real' case I was also drunk at the time.
  5. moononthewater

    moononthewater Valued Member

    I would worry more about your mental health than your Tai Chi if you were trying to pick up a Chav girlfriend. :)
    I think TJB says it quite well when he says he does not value it as part of his training every one has their own idea as to how to train. I suspect TJB, myself and a few others that teach all teach in relation to what they have learnt from their own learning experience. You are also missing an important factor in that we have both said its not part of our training. We have not said it should not be done we have said we dont use it as a learning tool. I know other members of the organisation I am in do spar I am not saying they are wrong but its not the way I do it.
  6. cullion

    cullion Valued Member

    Well I guess the bit I don't understand is why you choose not to do it.
  7. moononthewater

    moononthewater Valued Member

    How does one explain over 25 years of training?? Its my opinion its what I think works best. I used to train with a Go Ju 5th dan who next to my teacher is one of the most awesome martial artists I have ever met. His class do no sparring or wear any pads of any kind every thing is done as drills (at full blast) or pushing hands yet he has some of the best students you could find (im a little jealous). My teacher in Malaysia is very well known I have never worn pads whilst playing with him. My teacher In England has won pushing hands and fighting competitions and again have never worn pads with him. Its how I have I have done most of my training in any of the arts I have done so I do not feel a need to change. Thats about as close as I can get to putting years of training into a paragraph.
  8. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned

    Best students? Best at what? If they didnt spar, how do you know that they were good? Good at drills? Good at demo's?

    Fighting competitions? Nice term, what makes a fighting competition differant to full contact? Do you go to pubs and spill random beer?

    Do you have any video, as I am willing to bet money, right here, right now that it looked like kick boxing, or was a weak ass demo.

    He didnt, by chance, say it was an 'underground' fighting competition did he....thats what is normaly claimed.
  9. moononthewater

    moononthewater Valued Member

    Liokault explain to me why you are so petty with all your arguements. Also what is it with you and video? The Go Ju teacher was the student of Mike Lambert who I believe is a 9th dan not that he does much training now. Mike Lambert personally gave him his 5th dan so I suspect he knows his stuff. I think if you ever want to go to one of his classes he would welcome you open arms and you can find out for yourself. If you want I will give you his phone number and you can go to his class. My teacher in Malaysia you will find if you check out my profile and follow the website. Check out his name if you are half as good as you think you are I am sure you will have heard of him. He has a more than better reputation having trained with more teachers in Asia than you and I have had hot dinners.Then maybe you could go and train with him again I am sure he will welcome you and show you what we do.

    "Do you have any video, as I am willing to bet money, right here, right now that it looked like kick boxing, or was a weak ass demo.

    He didnt, by chance, say it was an 'underground' fighting competition did he....thats what is normaly claimed."

    No he did not get a life.

    Why do you want to turn everything into some bitter arguement. I have said before what I do is based on my experience of my years in training (or did you not read that bit). What makes you think your experiences are better than mine.
  10. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    This is indeed one of the great esoteric mysteries of the Taiji world...
    There is however a clue provided in the script of "Withnail and I" and I quote:
    (my emphasis)
    Funnily enough until recently I shaved my head daily, but have now allowed my hair to re-emerge. I am finding myself much more relaxed now (man) :cool:
    May I suggest a judicious application of the proverbial "syrup of figs" to calm your ire? ;) :D
  11. moononthewater

    moononthewater Valued Member

    That explains alot as for anyone who knows me I have hair halfway down my back......Im off to mellow out with my tomato plants :)
  12. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned

    I could have tomato plants.....if I wanted to......and if I had a garden!
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2006
  13. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned

    No need to get agitated just because I question, in a reasonable way, the things that you post.

    Come on, you have said that you spar with goju guy who do nothing softly, that you use wont use gloves and like to use headbutts and groin strikes. You also said that you like to end things fast when you use tai chi! Who here is not interested in a vid of that?

    Very impressive, very impressive.

    How many people do you have to fight for a 9th Dan? Anyway, 4 more than you have to for a 5th dan? :woo:

    I do find it odd that in answer to "if they don't spar, how can you say they are that good?", you just quote the number of belts in the hierarchy, like that means something.

    Anyway come on, your teacher is a Fighting Champion.....care to elaborate :D
  14. moononthewater

    moononthewater Valued Member

    As per usual Liokault reads things that are not there. Maybe if you did ask things in a reasonable way with out petty and snide remarks you might get a little more respect from people.
    As has been said before not interested in video`s and has been said they can easily be made to look like anything you want.
    What I said about the Go ju guy if you read it properly is that they do all their drills and playing at full speed and they do not wear padding read my posts again and properly cannot remember saying that I sparred him. I did say I sparred somebody else who used to beat me black and blue but that was another club.
    Your complete lack of understanding is almost laughable when you start having a dig at the dan grades. Did you check out the name and who the guy is?? His knowledge and experience is stuff you can only dream off. Did you check out our website all the info can be found on there.
    I am quite happy to put you in touch with either of these teachers if you so wish and you can try it for yourself.
  15. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned

    but I also tend to train with a good few karate friends and sparring is rarely light.
    From post No:16

    Ah, that would be the miss understanding.

    If you want me to be impressed (and I like Goju, we have Paul Coleman in Oxford, a 5th Dan I think, who seems more than capable) you should quote achievement, not years training+ belts+ adequacy at drilling.
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2006
  16. moononthewater

    moononthewater Valued Member

    First point yes maybe I should have pointed out it was a different club so I can understand that misunderstanding.
    As for your second point we go back to being petty. What do you class as an achievment. How about I have beaten some people up in the street. How about I have broken a couple of jaws or knocked a few people out.How about I have worked on the door and thrown people out. I do not consider those as achievements. I do not consider putting myself on video or winning competitions as something wonderful. I do consider my grades and the nearly 30 years I have been training as achievments. I consider the fact that I have learnt of some of some the best teachers around as achievments In particular the two I have trained with over the last 10 years or so.. I think that my last teacher and my present teacher talking to me as a serious instructor in my own right as an achievement.
    Please do not expect me to answer any more questions from you until you start asking adult questions.
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2006
  17. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned

    No no, you miss my point here. While i agree that none of the run of the mill things that you list are worth note, I was asking for the achievements of the people that you reference only by belt grade and whom they learned from. Hell, one guy you don't even name, just point at his belt and his teachers belt.

    Anyway, bringing us back to the point of the thread. For someone with so much experience who thinks that the original clips don't 'look' like tai chi, you cant offer us something that does look like tai chi (doesn't have to be a clip of yourself).
  18. Pikul

    Pikul Valued Member

    I haven't got any video but in theory one should step in, root, and game over. Ideally you should borrow the opponents strength and not get out of breath. I doubt that Liokault has ever been on the end of any serious internal power otherwise he would realise just how flipping dangerous this stuff is, stop being tedious, and get on with his training.
  19. piratebrido

    piratebrido internet tough guy

    Perhaps I will show him some. I will internally horde my shen and arouse my chi then POW!
  20. cullion

    cullion Valued Member

    Perhaps you ought to step onto a mat and try to do what you just described to an aggressive, fit opponent who isn't playing by your rules and doesn't even study Tai Chi and see whether you last long enough to worry about getting out of breath before they knock you out.

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