Taijiquan Full Contact Competition

I like the Liokault video better, especially with his commentary. Though it isn't pretty, he does look like he's using some Taiji principles like rooting, sensitivity and leading into emptiness, all of which are much harder to use "in the fray" so to speak. I also like the way he makes and maintains contact, ala "sticking and following."

The gloves add a somewhat unrealistic element in terms of Taiji, probably also changing the appearnace and strategy of the fight somewhat. However, if you had had the exact same fight without gloves people probably would have been more willing to accept it as Taiji. So, while I think you should also practice without gloves at times, I still think this video represents a good exercise in using Taiji in a realistic, uncooperative environment.

I'm not a big fan of Wu or any Taiji style other than Chen, which will also bias me against the way Wudang looks in sparring. Nonetheless, I think it's very good they're at least trying to make it work like this, rather than just assuming forms and push-hands will be enough to fight when the time comes, as I think many modern Taiji players do.

 

Actually kick boxers do move there opponents using pushes, shoulders or just brute force granted they might not have learnt it through pushing hands but try some kick boxing they do move you round quite alot.
Have a look at a few more bouts of kickboxing there are plenty out there that box more with their hands than their feet.
I dont like using gloves full stop I like it as a martial art not a sport. If I am going to use my Tai Chi I want to finish it quickly not in a few 3 minute rounds.
You dont have to agree with me cullion thats fine but as I see it I think it looks like kickboxing. I have always enjoyed the martial arts that I have done as a martial art not as competition sport. Thats me and thats the way I like it

 

Well, that's the problem - and basically why I don't rate clips, they can be so deceptive. Just because I can't see it (or you for that matter) doesn't always mean it isn't there. I know what I'm seeing when I do see internal power, but there's no way to explain it on here tbh. It just looks different to pure physical strength ime

Agree with you about 50%, but I feel an "imo" or "ime" would make you sound less dictatorial - particularly as you are completely wrong about jin IMHO... so saying "that is all of it" is a tad silly - you are only describing the strategy and some of the physical element, but ignoring the "thirteen postures" which are what genuinely defines Taiji imo
You've met George - did he not show you peng power? Next time you meet up ask him to, then see if your rationalisation still stands up.

No it isn't. Laogong points can't work through gloves ime/o which rules out at least half of all Taiji techniques...
:Angel:

 

Sure, but it still looks different to Tai Chi. Clinching with a different purpose, and no takedowns to mention just the obvious, visible differences.

But you're only not using gloves because you're not using your strikes at full, or close to full power. Don't you think that might detract from an element of practicing a martial art ?

I think pretty much everybody who goes in a ring or on a mat would like it to finish quickly. What would you do to your opponent that would destroy them so quickly that people aren't allowed to do in any sort of competitive environment ?

 

Grabbing testicles , Kicking testicles, knees to testicles, kicks to knees, open hand strikes to the face, open hand strikes to side of neck, arm locks, head butts, stamps on top of foot, stamps on back of knee, elbows etc...........come to mind.
This is not to say they work all the time because as you said a real situation is very messy and does not go the way you would like it but hopefully you will agree these are not the kind of things you find in competition.

 

Open hand strikes to the face are allowed in every professional MMA promotion currently running.

Stamping on peoples feet is allowed in MMA.

Elbows to the face are allowed in many, but not all MMA competitions. And in full Thai rules Muay Thai.

Open hand strikes to the neck are allowed in MMA competitions.

Head butts were allowed in the early UFCs and Vale Tudo matches, and are still done in Burmese boxing.

Stamps to the back of the knee are only going to happen when you're behind them or they are on the floor and you are standing over them. Good luck with that. I'm sure you can find something less viscious to do if you manage to get into such a position.

Armlocks are allowed in MMA.

Kicks to knees are allowed in full Thai rules and some MMA promotions.

Attacking nutsacks is only allowed in a few competition formats, but just remember that if you're allowed to do it to them, they're allowed to do it to you.

In short, with the exception of nut-attacks, you are saying that you are too hardcore for San Shou (which is a bold claim for somebody who doesn't spar full contact), but the roughest MMA promotions out there (or possibly Burmese Lethwei) would be a good format for you to show your skills (perhaps with the exception of your ball-grabbing repetoire). Is that how you spar in class ?

 

Don't you think that all of those would benefit greatly from just the hand eye coordination alone that you develop in sparring?

 

Cullion you are now getting petty I base my comments on my experience of nearly 30 years and I thought our discussion was about said clips. Which was supposed to be Tai Chi now are those techniques I mentioned allowed in said competition? I was doing competitions way back in 1985 and I do not feel the need to go back there. At no point have I claimed to be better than anybody else. I have not mentioned being hardcore I have only told you what I think so dont put words into my mouth. As for what goes on in my classes I have said I think somewhere my classes are quite small and I do most of my harder training with other people so do read what I wrote. I do know that what I know works when I need it. I gave you an opinion if you do not like it that is okay I dont care.

 

They might well Brido but I use lots of drills and games I have learnt in Go Ju and Keishin kan and other things I have played with in other arts (quite interesting putting a Tai Chi feel into Go Ju drills ) which will work co ordination.. Other instructors in our Association do sparring with gloves but I dont. Thats my choice and what I feel works.

 

I'm just pointing out that there are competitions out there where you are allowed to use almost all of the methods you say you would rather use for what you were doing to be a 'martial art' as distinct from 'sport'.

Well, if we're discussing why you feel it isn't a good way to test or develop martial ability, then there are other competitions out there with looser rules. What do you think of them ?

No, which was why I mentioned other competitions. What do you think of them ?

Fair enough, what did you compete in ?

Well, if San Shou is too restrictive for you, then there all other things you could do. I don't think anybody said that San Shou sparring or competitions were the same as a fight in the street, just that they allowed you to develop and test a lot of skills that would be useful. If you feel they are too restrictive because you can't use palms, or armlocks etc.. there are other formats you could use for your sparring.

 

Thats ok if thats what you are saying but let me repeat again I was doing karate (full and semi contact) and did some kick boxing competition in 1985 (well actually before that) why would I want to still be doing competition. I got my first dan grade that year if I had not taken myself beyond that stage then I would have wasted a good few years of learning and my art would still be stuck in 1985.
I have no problem with people doing competition if that is their thing thats fine but its not mine. What do I think of them I like to sit down and watch any of them from Judo through to UFC. I dont think I said at any point that competition was not a good way to learn I have just said its not how I do it.

 

Yes, drills are important, but thats not the point of the thread is it.

None of the above is going to work unless you train it in a 'live' manner.

Also, I cannot help but feel that over reliance on the fight ending ability of any of the above is very unsafe.

I have been kneed in the groin badly enough that one tactical swelled up to the size of an large orange, and yes it hurt at the time, but it took me a while to stop training and look at it.

Kicks to knees, I have been in San Shou events that explicitly stated that you could kick to the front of the knee. No one got one in. I also witnessed a San Shou event a few weeks ago where a straight kick was used to the front of a (almost locked straight) knee......didnt stop the guy.

The only thing that I feel would have significantly changed the look of any of the 'fights' posted here are knees. Had knees been allowed, stances would have been shorter and probably more throws would have happened.

 

We are always going to disagree on the ‘magic’ side of tcc

Your "thirteen postures” and 8 directions etc are just detail and only define what can be done, they do not generate anything new, they just pigeon hole and categorise existing physical possibility.

We were to busy talking about stuff. He is an interesting guy.

 

Thats ok Liokault you dont have to agree with me but I base what I teach on my experience which includes a fair few years and a few scraps and some door work. As for the live manner I think I have said I am all up for live training hence my training with other people. It is my experience and its what I have found works its what I have picked up from lots of teachers in different arts and worked into my Tai Chi classes. You can feel its unsafe if you want I am fully aware how a few beers or some one who can handle pain will not go down easy have been there ( Did Go Ju for a long time aswell and those guys enjoy the pain). As to coming off the point of the thread I was answering a question to Brido!!!

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that you HAVE to put gloves on and spar to make your MA effective. I do though, say that you have to do something free, un choreographed and under pressure. If you can do that with out it being sparring (which is a term that covers many differant activities) then good. But most 'live' training that I see misses one aspect.

Ban him I say, I mean, what did he ever contribute?

 

Yup. You always bring it up...
...and therefore presumably believe in it at some level...
...whereas I don't...! lol

Thirteen postures is the classical backbone of modern Taiji, not "mine". Do you seriously not train any of that stuff in Wudang? (I'm sure you do, it's just dressed up differently.) Take peng (ward off) for example - it's not just a physical posture, it's an expression of intent and body mechanics to create a specific effect (call me crazy if you like btw, but I always abbreviate that to "energy" - silly old me ). It's a trained technique for a specific outcome, rather than just hitting, grabbing etc etc That is what makes Taiji "Taiji" rather than "any old MA" isn't it? Imho - it's psychophysical rather than just purely physical. The Chinese called that "jin" for short and the mental/psychic interface with the body and its deeper aspects "qi" - "belief" and "magic" don't enter into it imho.

I know you were... :yeleyes: ...but remember "talk does not cook rice"

So ask him to show you peng etc next time you see him and then get back to me (rather than "at" me lol)
Peace
:Angel:

 

Last night I got punched right on the lips. Had the head, ribs, kidneys, chin, jaw - all the usual before.

Never on the lips though, it was weird. After it happened I just thought "Did he just punch me on the lips??", then I nearly got hit again. It wasn't like a glance from a hook, or a mucked up shot. It was just BAM, straight shot, right to the lips. Just a bit bloodied, not swollen, which is a relief! Would have looked a right **** - well, more of a ****!

 

If its any consalation years ago I used to spar in karate with a black belt called Jay who used to beat me black and blue about once a week. This went on for about four years as time went on I got better and even managed to knock his gumshield out once which was the highlight of four years training with him. But I used the idea of patience and sitting back and waiting...........and it worked because in the end he left

 

It's cool, I loved it. Just never been sucker punched in the lips before. Was just strange. About 3 minutes before said lip incedent, I nearly kicked him right in the stones, so he was just getting his own back.

But on the lips though??!

 

Every one is different and reacts differently to taking a hit. Going back to the same club (we used to fight more than train) We had a guy called Rob who was an indifferent green belt. But if you hit him and hurt him he started to smile and enjoy him self and would walk through anything you through at him (bugger even knocked me out with a spinning back fist once). I once saw him recieve a side kick which made him fly through the air but he was straight back in again. Took him to the hospital later because he had fractured 3 ribs
Sorry going off the subject I think!!