Taijiquan Full Contact Competition

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by Sandy, Jul 15, 2006.

  1. cullion

    cullion Valued Member

    The point I was getting at was that recognisable 'classical' techniques in a full contact 'free' setting like that are going to interspersed amongst much rough and tumble. That doesn't mean that people who do these things with some degree of success aren't succeeding because of Tai Chi training they've had. Quite the opposite.

    What you are seeing when you see people from Tai Chi backgrounds sparring or competing and looking rough and scrappy are people trying to use principles or specific techniques they've learned, and often not managing to pull it off cleanly because the other person is trying so hard not to let them. I think it would look the same if anybody who had trained in Tai Chi entered one of these things, but the people who had more experience sparring hard would on the whole cope better with the 'rough and tumble' than people who didn't.

    No, although Liokault may be able to, but see the answer above. I don't feel this is a contradiction, I hope I made it clear why.

    I don't think Tai Chi is just about specific moves you can recognise from the form. I think it involves conditioning methods which make people fitter and better able to endure somebody trying to give them a hiding. I think it involves broad tactics and principles like using evasive footwork and trying to smother strikes by going for a 'clinch' and attempt a takedown etc.. (at least this is what more experience people tell me).

    Fair enough, like I said nobody can be a perfect example of Tai Chi mechanics under that kind of pressure. Have a look at the 'Brush knee' vid again. The bit where one guy calmly waits for the other bloke to come at him and then scoops him up and chucks him over his shoulders. Is that what you're looking for ?

    Well, the things you describe are really hard to do perfectly under that kind of pressure and resistance. What I don't understand is why you think somebody would be better at it if they never engaged in it ?
     
  2. cullion

    cullion Valued Member

    Actually that's not true. I've tried and failed to knock people out several times with wild haymakers. It's really not that easy.


    Show us this real Tai Chi we're missing out on.
     
  3. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned



    Um, thats not really your point is it.

    Your point is that your friends, with the r3al tai chi, spar and make it look like tai chi. But then you blow your point away by adding that they dont go that hard. :woo:

    Anyone, any style, can look good in an easy sparring session. :D



    Taichi freesparring....this is a new concept to me sorry.

    Taichi based on submissions? Maybe you should start a new thread on that as I would find it interesting to talk about it further.


    So, here is the r33l tai chi....and its in Texas :D
     
  4. TheMightyMcClaw

    TheMightyMcClaw Dashing Space Pirate

  5. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned



    One of my fights was posted in the original link. Not sure how much of the fight is there as I cant get it to work on my pc, but the whole think is still up on goggle video.

    Ok, so a run down of why its tai chi and not anything else:

    Time: 17 seconds.
    Lay back from a punch, ala reeling silk.

    Time: 21-22 seconds.
    Duck away from his punch and let it go by. Follow into his (now) void and walk him out of the area.

    Time: 30 seconds.

    Catch (by way of messed up brush knee) his kick and attempt a sweep (ala the Wudang brush knee application), fail to sweep him, so walk him out of the area for the easy points.

    Time: 1 min 39 seconds.

    I layback from his punch and counter simultaneously with a punch of my own. More or less our reeling silk application apart from my punch is a hook rather than a cross.

    I follow in after my punch and take a dominant "clinch" position...you can see him struggling to gain an advantage.

    Time: 2 min 8 seconds.

    Thought for a second I was a kick boxer, so I throw my only kick of the fight (one that has nothing to do with tai chi btw)....he counters with a really clean cross....so I go back to being tai chi again lol.

    Time: 2 min 11 ish.

    He tries a hip throw, I counter by moving my weight round and trying my own hip throw (white crane)...he spoils my throw but loose balance, so I push him out....but fall my self as well.

    Time: 5 min 20 seconds.

    I do a really nice slip out side his cross (leaving me out side his arm) and push into his void....moving him from the area.

    Time 5 min 45 seconds.

    He tries to push me out, I turn him and he fly’s away in almost demo like fashion :D

    Time 6 min 27 seconds. How did that cross not knock him out? I follow the punch in to 'pushing hands' and move him out of the area.

    But over all the main thing was that despite him being much taller than me, having a full stone in weight on me (I know as the ref asked me if it was ok and gave weights etc) , being younger and leaner, I still using basic pushing hands principles dominated him and stopped him have any advantage.

    You can see many times in the fight where I close into "pushing hand" range and more or less easily control him, despite his physical advantages.

    The only times i'm in any real trouble are when I try to do the kick boxer thing, he turns out tobe a better puncher than me.

    Over all, I'm not very happy with the fight, but he was quite good (I know that he was expected to win :D ).



    exactly right.

    Tai chi is not a serise of techniques, its a principle.

    We should not be looking for tai chi in single techniques, we should be looking for principles. We should not look for people 'doing' tai chi, we should look for people being tai chi. After 16 odd years, I have come to the conclusion that my teacher does this better than I ever will. Its 11pm and i'm getting up at 5am or I would wright more.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2006
  6. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned

    :D
     
  7. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    Onyomi - agree with some of what you say but have to disagree and say that mobility is a problem if you're too flat footed in reception, but you should definitely root in applications somehow - even if it looks ugly lol :cool:
    I only use standard Taiji footwork in form tbh. If I'm playing I tend to go onto the balls of my feet a lot then 'stamp' down to attack if I can or if I'm grappling.
    Cullion - I liked the clips, but it's still not what I was talking about.
    Taiji is about internal work (the 8 jins) applied through movement imo
    whether it looks neat or messy isn't my point - it's whether jin is being used (Taiji/neijia) or not (waija) imho
    Liokault - If you wrote like that last post all the time I'd get on fine with you - any training differences aside. Can you post a link to the clip you're describing?
    I agree that being Taiji is the aim. That includes in our everyday behaviour also imho
    Peace to all
    :Angel:
     
  8. onyomi

    onyomi 差不多先生

    I don't think that. Did I say I was against sparring? I'm just against doing too much free sparring without the proper buildup of form, technique, and semi-cooperative drills first. I still think some kind of free, uncooperative sparring is essential to making things work under pressure, and I think it's a good thing that Wudang people do that.

    Now I'm interested to see that video again with your commentary Liokault--but I can't find it. Do you have a link to where it's posted on Google Video?
     
  9. Chuckster

    Chuckster New Member

    You are exactly right. The practice of a martial art, no matter the form one chooses, is fun. Fighting, on the other hand, is a brutal, miserable business.
    Chuckster
     
  10. Skrom

    Skrom Banned Banned

    i don't want to derail the thread or anything, but i don't know why you're making a distinction between martial arts and fighting. martial arts are fighting systems; they were made to train people for combat. i never said martial arts were fun either, so i don't know what exactly you're agreeing with.
     
  11. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned

    http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=2254785689527860048&q=me+san+shou

    I watched it on my version from the original file, hope the timing is the same.

    I went through it in slow mo to pick up bits that I think fit with clear tai chi principles; I was amazed at how different it looks in slow motion. I was previously really unhappy with this fight, but after looking at it a bit more analytically and I am now fairly happy.

    And the guy I fought (I forget his name), was really quite good, you can see how he knows how to stop throws before they even start, and he knows at least as much about fighting from the clinch as I do.
     
  12. cullion

    cullion Valued Member

    Ok, well I wouldn't claim to be an expert on jin. What do you look for when you try and spot it in a video ?
     
  13. cullion

    cullion Valued Member

    Fair enough, I misunderstood your position.
     
  14. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned

    Going a bit further into the "tai chi is not a series on standalone techniques" that was started a bit back up the thread. Steve Rowe has started a thread over on the tai chi forum that touched on some similar points but anyway:

    Tai Chi is not a series of techniques.
    This is why you cant do a simple analysis of a fight and say "look at that great round house kick" as you could in TKD of "look at that great upper cut" as you could in boxing.

    In TKD and in boxing, how much time is spent throwing clean techniques? Very little.... most of the time (and most of the skill) is involved with creating openings that you can safely throw your kick or punch into. What is the point of the fastest, hardest kick in the world, if every time you use it you fall on your ****? Or the other guy just steps in and knocks you out.

    Tai Chi is not a series of techniques.
    It is a principle. This principle is: Be weak where your opponent is strong and be strong where your opponent is weak. That is it, that is all of tai chi, no magic, no strange energy that no one can ever really describe but still insist that they use, its not about anything massively complex or massively simple. As I said on an earlier post, we should look for people being tai chi, not people doing tai chi.

    BTW, the above is true even if you are wearing gloves, or have arbitrary rules assigned.
     
  15. piratebrido

    piratebrido internet tough guy

    I have started doing a bit of sparring with a guy from my club. We went at and were as sloppy as hell, although we were without gloves and were a but afraid to hit each other. We were still disapointed though. So we got gumshields and strapped ont the vale tudo/MMA gloves and started training. We are going set sparring for now. One throws punches and the other defends and counters. We are finding this excellent. The gloves and gum sheild means we are not worried about smacking each other. It is not a one-two set sparring. I am moving about him, throwing dummy punches and then trying to hit him with the proper punch. He has to deflect and launch a counter. I of course am trying to not get hit either, and a good guard is paramount in this. Drop the hand and you get punished. So it's free sparring with certain attacks and counters. We are loving it. We are drilling the technique in a more realistic fashion, while practicing set techniques. When we went at it again it was 100% better.

    Although now when we aren't sparring and just doing technique in class we end up smacking each other up! :D Great way to train though. Drill drill drill and realistically as you can.

    Do the same in BJJ, and thats the secret to their 90's success. To practice the triangle, you would walk through it a few times so you know what you are doing. Then you up the pressure until eventually one is trying to the triangle and the other is trying to stop you and pass your guard.

    If you are serious about the martial, then drilling it against a non compliant opponent is the way. I use nothing more than a mouth guard and MMA gloves, which are fingerless and has no padding at the palm, this gripping and palm strikes (bitch slap) is possible. Sure, knee stamps and groin strikes cannot be trained in this way, but many fundamentals can be with are vital to be able to achieve this. Any chin na book I have read say it is vitual to strike the person before plaaying a lock or hold, so drill that strike. It's a different world when someone is trying to hit you and not be hit in return, and like everything else it is something you get used to.

    In Judo I came across problems as I hadn't been in the situation before, I would sieze up. Now I am relaxed and flowing, and on Saturday I downed a few folk without throwing or sweeping - I felt their force as they tried something and just gave them a helping push to the floor.

    Getting better at it in groundwork, but still working on it.

    Relaxation, or being in a state of what some call 'sung' is key. You have to learn to be sung in form, same with wrestling, or fighting. It is a learned skill. Gets easier the more experienced in different situations you are.
     
  16. piratebrido

    piratebrido internet tough guy

    While that is a very simplified idea, I do think you are quite correct. The more I do and read, the more Tai Chi Chuan seems like a philosophy. In any external martial art I do or have done, they very much teach techniques to counter certain attacks or situations. Sure, we have the forms and our own techniques that we share with the greater martial arts community, but they are becoming secondary as I get more experienced.

    Perhaps it was my inexperience in martial arts at the time, but in karate when doing kata I was looking at indivudual techniques, I was consentrating on the blocks, or punches or kicks, as a seperate movement. When I started learning the form I was the exact same. Was my arm correct? Correct stance? What way should my palms be facing? Something has changed though. Movement is more important now. Did that flow right? Was I in balance? Was that in accordance with the philosophy of Tai Chi Chuan? Perhaps I should have been thinking of the same in karate, but kata is very much like 1-2-3-4-5, it is hard to flow a kata together. I done karate for longer than I have done Tai Chi Chuan, so something in Tai Chi is making me think different.

    The theory is the key if you ask me. The form has stopped from being just a flow of techniques (which it is) and is now a flow of ideas. Of course we need technique, what use is an idea if you don't have the tools to execute it? Technique, while important, is secondary.

    When I began to think like this it wasn't long until I was walking into Judo, MMA, BJJ, Submission Wrestling, Boxing and not worrying about corrupting my Tai Chi Chuan in some way.

    I am learning all these techniques from different styles, but they are all just tools for a brilliant idea. :)
     
  17. moononthewater

    moononthewater Valued Member

    I actually agree with liokaults last passage. Though I still believe the minute you put gloves on you might aswell call it kickboxing.
     
  18. piratebrido

    piratebrido internet tough guy

    Why? Surely Tai Chi is more than open hands? Zhou and Kao are two 'powers' you could utilise with no hands, and I am sure you could use your body in some way to use the other six?
     
  19. cullion

    cullion Valued Member

    I disagree with this for several reasons :-

    1) Kickboxing doesn't have throws.

    2) Kickboxers don't practice moving their opponent out of the ring/off the mat using skills developed in pushing hands.

    3) Most kickboxers I've seen competing (whether in Kickboxing or San Shou) seem to do an awful lot more kicking than the Tai Chi people I've seen.

    4) If the thought of boxing gloves bothers you because you want to use open hands or locks requiring you to be able to grip with your fingers, you can wear MMA gloves.

    I'm sure there are other reasons why Tai Chi doesn't suddenly turn into kickboxing the minute you don gloves and go full contact, but the ones above are the reasons that are immediately obvious to a relative newb.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2006
  20. piratebrido

    piratebrido internet tough guy

    You can't spend a weekend watching Van Dam films to prepare for a San Shou fight.
     

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