Taiji vs. Bagua vs. Xingyi

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by gerard, Apr 1, 2005.

  1. Ziranmen

    Ziranmen New Member

    Yeh, I agree with you wholeheartedly. Conscripts wouldn't, but that the trained regulars would. Note that Dong never taught the imperial guard Bagua explicitely, he taught a shaolin style (Lo Han I think?) (I won't go into whether or not shaolin has IM concepts, thats another thread). Modern Bagua came from his disciples who interpreted what they learnt off him, his disciples being the top soldiers at the time (the ones who didn't have to worry about mere survival).
  2. Ziranmen

    Ziranmen New Member

    Bagua was good for crowd control. The imperial guard used to use it to break up mobs and one guard would fight off a number of people at a time (no, don't have proof). Cheng Tinghua was an active fighter during the Boxer Rebellion and was eventually shot by a number of riflemen. He is also famous for his run in with a number of Russians army thugs which he defeated simultaneously (read it in a book). Probably not that useful for battlefield when your in formation, but has it purposes. From what I gather the top martial artists had roles similar to the modern day SAS (protection, assassination, infiltration, etc).
  3. nzric

    nzric on lookout for bad guys

    I've always thought of bagua as a bodyguard art. That's been backed up by the general things I've read, and also from comments by teachers and a couple of bagua masters (e.g. Ma Chuan Xu) when I've spoken to them.

    Wasn't bagua "discovered" when a high-ranking official saw a waiter using the stepping methods to get through a crowd? Or is that a myth?
  4. Buddy

    Buddy Valued Member

    My take on that is it is more apochrypal stories. And Cheng Tinghua made glasses. Yin Fu sold steamed buns before meeting Dong. Li Cunyi and Zhang Zhangkui ran a bodyguard service. None were soldiers. Dong was a eunech in the service of Prince Su.
  5. Ziranmen

    Ziranmen New Member

    Dong was initially a house servant for Prince Wu. The legend goes that the during a martial art demonstration none of the servants could get through the hallways because of the crowd, so he climbed over the building and served tea that way. When the prince saw his agility he asked him to demonstrate his martial art. So he did and ended up obtaining the chief post in the palace. He said he learnt the martial art of two taoist monks and didn't know the name of it (don't think it had one). When the prince asked him what it was called, he made it up on the spot and said "Baguazhang". That was around 1850.

    "Divine Strength Eye-glasses Cheng" (Cheng Ting Hua) was also a eye-glass spectacle maker. He was also one of Dongs top students. He was not a soldier, but he did get shot fighting foreign soldiers.

    Li Wen Bao was a student of Cheng's, he worked for General Chang and was appointed to seek out foreign spies. He later worked as a bodyguard for President Cao Kun.

    Cheng You Gun (Cheng Ting Hua's nephew) was employed in Fengtian under a government officer Li Wen Bao. His job was to seek out theives and spies. He later held another position under General Zhang Zuo Lin.

    It's in "Dragon Stretches Its Claws" by Liu Jing Ru (Vice Chairman of the Research Society of Baguazhang in Beijing) and CS Tang. It's in english.
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2005
  6. Buddy

    Buddy Valued Member

    Once again the banquet story is only that. Originally Dong called his art "Circling Palms", the eight trigram reference being added later.
  7. Ziranmen

    Ziranmen New Member

    Buddy, do you have a reference for that?
  8. gerard

    gerard Valued Member

    Agree 100%.

    IMA is not a close-chain kind of activity. Another art could be created in any point of Samsara. Just patience, dedication and deep intuitive skill are needed.
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2005
  9. silksword

    silksword New Member

    ba gua all the way, and for the rcord, cheng ting hwa getting shot is only a rumor, one of many. similar to bruce lee's rumored deaths.
  10. Buddy

    Buddy Valued Member

    Pa Kua Chang Journal. From the research of Kang Kowu. Don't say that name fast, it'll sound like a marsupial.
  11. Ziranmen

    Ziranmen New Member

    B, Cool! Thanks! I'll check it out.
  12. soggycat

    soggycat Valued Member

    Not a rumour

    Bruce Lee died in Hong Kong in 1972 when a blood vessel in his brain ruptured.
    That part is not a rumour. What's rumoured is
    1.He took drugs and died as a result. The drug were rumoured to be anything from pain killer to recreational ...

    2. He was in the house of actress Betty Ting Pei rehearsing lines.
    This part is not a rumour. What's rumoured was he was having an affair


    Bagua was developed by Dong Haichuan in the early 19th century, who apparently learnt from Taoist and Buddhist masters in the mountains of rural China. There is evidence to suggest a synthesis of several pre-existing martial arts taught and practiced in the region he lived in, combined with Taoist circle walking. (It should be noted that circle walking appears popular among the shamanic traditions, including a version practiced by Siberian shamans). Dong Haichuan taught for many years in Beijing, eventually earning patronage by the Imperial court.

    Few good teachers of Baguazhang are available in the United States, and many do not advertise. Many are conservative and in line with Confucian didactic tradition will only reveal internal practices to dedicated students.

    Cheng Ting Hua was killed during the Boxer Rebellion of 1900, when Chinese martial Artists rose by the hundreds against armed troops of the 8 invading foreign countries : Japan, England, Austria/ Hungary , France, Italy , Belgium and USA.
    Many Chinese born Bagua teachers tell the tale that with 2 swords he slew 11 Germans soldiers before falling toa bullet.

    Boxer Rebellion:

    Cheng Ting Hua/Hwa
    Sadly after only two years, Cheng was killed by German Soldiers in 1900, the boxer rebellion. During an altercation over being work press ganged into a work detail he pulled a short knife and was shot jumping over a wall in an attempt to escape. Cheng was only fifty-two.

    In 1900, the Eight Countries Allied Armies invaded Beijing. Master Cheng wanted to stop a unit of the German army that was threatening and intimidating the people. While engaged in battle against this German unit he was shot and killed.

    Because he managed an eyeglass business, he was also sometimes known as "Glasses Cheng." Cheng Ting-Hua died in 1900 while resisting foreign troops during the Opium War.
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2005
  13. gerard

    gerard Valued Member


    I know pretty well the accounts of the Boxer rebellion. Very sad like all wars.

  14. Kempo Fighter

    Kempo Fighter New Member

    I really wouldnt agree with the individual x factor and such, I studied Ba Gua Zhang for a while, and the two opposing styles really wouldnt fare well against Ba Gua's responsive stances and fluid technique, xing yi is a very aggresive style and would probably eventually fall to Ba Gua, but I dont know about the other guy in the fight, that one I cant call.
  15. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    When you talk about the 3 IMA's, I for one even though only ever having tried taiji, find it pretty hard to choose one over the other when it comes to combat. Part of that I think is because I can see crossover between them and each has its area of strength, you could say that even though their charactaristics are different their essence is the same. A bit like people...and combat...
    Last edited: May 2, 2005
  16. blue eagle

    blue eagle New Member

    It'll depend on the practicer or day, but I'll say Bagua cuz i'm biased for studying it and what other style practices striking someone in the air while throwing them.

    and hitting a good swimming body artist and not getting killed is no easy task.

    Tai chi also has some good throws but i'll take bagua over it, and xing yi's somewhat more of an external style, without too much kicks.
  17. polecat63

    polecat63 Valued Member

    Uh.....no it isn't. Been studying xing yi for two years and I think I've kicked, or have been kicked, twice. Xing yi's kicks are to the lower part of the body. Knees, ankles and groin mostly, and you;e taught to kick as you step. It's not like karate or TKD or even Tai Chi. Also, it is a very internal atyle since power is generated internally and not externally. But hey, maybe I'm wrong....or is I.
  18. Ular Sawa

    Ular Sawa Valued Member

    I have to agree with Polecat. It could be a style difference but the Hsing I that I studied did not emphasize kicking.
  19. blue eagle

    blue eagle New Member

    everything generate's power internally and externally. you still need to have muscles to move(ppl over mystify what is internal). and I mean it's more external since it's more similar to so called somewhat more external styles such as long fist than bagua/taichi from what i've seen. minus the fancy stuff, and crossing fists.
  20. nzric

    nzric on lookout for bad guys

    Hsing-i appears external, but the power is generated internally. Also, a lot of hsing-i training is about focusing intent (qi/energy/concentration) and internal coordination. This is what defines it as an internal art.

    but yeah, if you don't know what to look for, it may seem to be like very simple wing chun or karate.

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