Hello, Imagine you are invited to assist as an spectator to a Wushu Tournament held in Beijing (China). Once in there you go and watch the Internal event: The internal event is Hand Form and the finalists are three masters of the following categories: Open Chen Taijiquan, Open Imperial Baguazhang and Open Shan Xi Xingyiquan. The question is: WHO IS GOING TO WIN? Last thing all of them are accomplished Nei Gung Taoists. IMO, it's a tough call but there will be lots of :woo: and the fight can go for days!
Excuse my ignorance, but by Hand Form do you mean a forms competition or a fight? If it was a fight... Well the history, and the common assumption is that Bagua and Hsing-i will always end in a draw (as per the famous legend/story), but I'd be tempted to side with Hsing-i (against my own personal preference) because it's more direct, so the hsing-i guy would probably be more proficient in a few fight-finishing moves than the more intricate bagua stylist. I'd pay a LOT of money to see Chen Taiji vs Baguazhang... wouldn't be surprised if a tornado started in the middle of the stadium (yep, I've seen the movie Tai Chi Master). Chen would probably win because while both have the deceptive stepping & quick direction change, the taiji guy doesn't have to coil/prepare as much to generate power (therefore ultimately quicker)... also, many bagua methods rely on the element of surprise against an external attack, which would be useless on a proficient taiji fighter. Chen taiji vs the Xingyiquan - I'd have to say definitely taiji. Many taiji methods are designed specifically to counter hsing-i directness, and a good stylist should be able to transfer the energy/force, even if it's with full intent from a hsing-i attack. Also, the taiji fighter has more range/variety of techniques to draw from.
A fictionalise account of Dong Hai Chuan Versus Yang Lu Chuan http://www.wu-jing.org/dramas/master_of_taichi.php. Hong Kong TV series, Choreographer = Yuen Woo Ping ( Crouching Tiger, Matrix, Kill Bill, Iron Monkey)
I have to admit I've just fallen in love with the chick depicted in the far left side of the screen. What are you saying Gerard? You supposed to be a monk-boy Let me recall at this point this Zen short-story: "Two monks were walking down a muddy road, and came across a young woman trying to cross it but unable to avoid a large pool of water. The first monk was inclined just to walk on. The second monk promptly helped the woman by lifting her up and carrying her across. Following this incident the two monks walked on, but there was obvious tension between them. After a while the first monk, unable to contain his anger any longer, remonstrated with the second, saying: "You know it is against our vows to touch a woman, why did you lift her up and carry her?" The second monk replied: "I may have carried her back there but you are still carrying her and you haven't let her go." No more girls for Gerard
Good lord. I don't know. . . I'd say Xing-I, cuz it's so damned aggressive. . . . but. . . . .god you're killing me gerard!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The only thing about XingYi is that if his opponent knows how to side step he could be in trouble. - Matt
Very PC! I just remembered the simple answer... no-one would win because if they were true "masters" they'd know the first rule of IMA fighting, which is if the opponent does not attack, you don't attack. So it'd end in a stalemate because they'd know whoever attacked first would probably lose.
Unless of course the first attack was a fake! Usually if two people of close ability go at it, its very likely one or both could get seriuosly injured or worse. All in all a very bad idea. A good reason to let things go. If there is equal ability, I'd choose the guy with the strongest mind, and most serious intent. Could be Hsing i (mind intent) boxing. This area is hard to measure though and falls into the x factor area and comes down to individuals again.
There was a contest like this held in Nanjing in 1928 (and I think again 1933?). Bagua, Taiji and Xing Yi fighters were all very effective but the tournament was particularly viscious and unforgiving. It was eventually halted due to the excessive injuries suffered by the competitors.
what if? you did ba gua and hsing-yi as tai chi?? or do tai chi like hsing-yi, or hsing-yi like ba gua?? crazy isn't it?
something like that. the idealology is very interesting. i am reading the study of form-mind boxing right now. simple yet profound. elegant, yet without show. it's just that with all the competition out there about whose martial art is better and what is the best to train... people seem to forget the underlying principle is that practice makes perfect... it doesn't matter if you practice. all things are possible, there is no right or wrong way, there is only martial art.
Tai Chi would win. The latter two are compliments to Tai Chi. You learn tai chi, and you cultivate sensitivity and yielding, retaliation through redirection of force, as well as focus, relaxation and internal power. You then learn baqua and learn footwork and body manipulation. Finally, you learn xing-i and you learn to channel all the internal energy you cultivate with the prior two into a single blow. Xing-i masters could reportedly kill and opponent with a single strike, so honed was their internal power and concentration. So, if we are to assume that all these fighters only know there one particular style, then tai chi will win, because the other two are nothing (or at least, are very little) with out it. It begins and it ends with tai chi, tai chi being the highest expression of the human body. You start with tai chi, you then use bagua and xing-i to further your skill, and then you later find that your tai chi is now able to improve that much more and you come full circle, nearly indestructible for having mastered all three (Assuming you've got a hundred or more years spare time )
The real queastion should be who would get to the bar first? Xingyi guy would try to plow straight through the crowd, the bagua dude would circle the bar, and the taiji fella would find the crowds yin point and slip right to the front! Bit of a pointless exercise really, as the result depends more on the guy than the art. If you then say that they are all really high level, then chances are that they wouldn't fight at all, just use some other not combative 'test' to show their skill.
Master of Tai Chi TV series ( 1997) I have just finished watching the entire 18 hours of this series. <phew> It is actually fairly close to historical events. ( I checked with my Chinese born masters) Oh yeah, I had to watch it with a Mandarin speaking person as there are no English subtitles at all ! The fighting is absolutely fantabulous, no special effects and flying business. Plenty of sword and female action too. It's a Beijing , not Hong Kong production. Jet Li's real life Wushu coach plays Chen Tai Chi master, Jacky Wu , new Wushu champ and also actor in TaiChi Master2 , plays Yang Lu Chuan. You get to see many Tai Chi and Bagua techniques nrarely before featured in a movie or TV show. Tai Chi Master (1 & 2) really pale in comparison to this. The series documents the life of Yang Lu Chuan , from when he secretly learns Tai Chi from the Chen family subsequently modifying it to Yang Style. There's an interesting Yang Versus Bagua match between Yang Lu Chuan and Dong Hai Chuan. Both were "auditioning" for Head of Security in the Emperor's court ( 1850's). The Emperor was aware both were formidable styles but couldn't make up his mind. By then Yang Lu Chuan and Dong Hai Chuan had cleared all the elimination rounds defeating all other styles etc. In the final match , Yang Lu Chuan conceded defeat only because he felt he couldn't beat Dong, so he called of the fight. Consequently, Dong Hai Chuan and Bagua was given official court recognition as Imperial martial arts #1, Taichi was #2. Imperial body guards had to learn both. Soldiers were trained in HsingYi.
