Taiji teaching methodology (Split from Oh My GOD!!!!!!!!!! )

I've taken today to look through your site and its truely amazing.

Never before have I seen someone post such a quantity of self absorbed, ego boosting tripe in all my life (and I've been on MAP for a few years now! )

Your attitude is (IMO) completely at odds with tai chi's philosophy of yielding. Your site talks about taking the concepts of tai chi and applying them in every day matters, yet you dont show this in yourself.

Link

"My way is the only right way, and everyone else is crap". Seems to be the message that your site puts across, all the while maintaining that you are in this for the good of tai chi.

Get over yourself you pityful woman, and accept that your views do not have the monopoly on validity.

I honestly read your site and felt great sadness for both you and your students.

And, when did Tai Chi have black belts???

Link

Also, regarding your opinion that TaijiQuan is "for fighting", I completely disagree. Taiji is for defending yourself. There is a marked difference. Karate is a fighting art, Taiji is not.
You have a little crusade going on trying to use your idea of Taiji to change the world. I have a quote from Yang Chen Fu, which quotes his grandfather, Yang Lu Chan talking about TaijiQuan's place in the universe. I won't try to paraphrase it, you will have to bear with me until I can find that source of the quote and quote it here directly.

Wishing you all the best.

James

 

Oh well, we're not ended yet then. Fair enough.

Our school has a belt system - that is my decision. We are rare but not unique.

Taiji means greatest extremes - the purely yielding stuff was for the Manchus benefit, along with all the tripe about mysticism. Both Chen Fake and his son Chen Zaokui advised all-out unremitting attack if you are smaller or weaker than your opponent, so they do not get chance to use their advantages. Think like a Roman soldier getting past the spear tip of a much larger fighter and then killing them with their gladius.

Zheng Manqing said we should "look to the classics." They tell us to "crowd the opponent all the more" as well as "getting ever further away." We should use yin against yang and yang when the opponent is weak (uprooted or whatever). Also the Chen style is the "classic" style. Zheng said if we stray from the classics we were wrong. I mostly teach the Zheng forms, but have a very Chen style approach. This is no big deal. If you understand and can use your art, you can teach it how you like.

I don't think I am more opinionated than most other people in (or outside) the martial arts, I'm just more honest about the fact that I do not consider all viewpoints equal.

There is a LOT of documentary evidence to show that what is commonly taught as Taiji is a corrupted version of a once very formidable martial art. Taijiquan is a great natural fighting style and can be learned quite quickly for that reason. Yet the vast majority of teachers do not know any applications at all and just keep their students hanging on with false promises. Fighting ability does not just appear Jedi-like in the body - the fighting techniques must be learned. And Taiji was once just a fighting art like any other. Here's a reading list I send out to students.

The books we'd most recommend (with a start rating of *= OK; ** = Good; ***= Excellent) are

1) ***The Sword Polisher's Record (The Way of Kung Fu) by Adam Hsu
2) ***T'ai-chi Touchstones: Yang Family Secret Transmissions, translated by Douglas Wile
3) ***Chinese Martial Arts Training Manuals - A Historical Survey by Brian Kennedy & Elizabeth Guo (actually I'm tempted to give this 4 stars for really telling it like it is).
4) **Applied Tai Chi Chuan by Nigel Sutton
5) *Nei Jia Quan - Internal Martial Arts Edited by Jess O'Brien (this book is IMO mostly rubbish, but there are some really excellent chapters (which you can compare and contrast with all the nonsense) - one is by Tim Cartmell and another by Paul Gale. James Wing Woo is quite good - but overall you'll have to take the rough with the smooth.

I know the quote you mean, but many people have subsequently pointed out that Yang Luchan died 11 years before Yang Chengfu was born so the quote can't really be true.

Also bear in mind that if Taijiquan was not a fighting art, Yang Banhou would not have taught it to the Western Garrison in Beijing. The art was created by General Chen Wangting, based on the work of General Qi Jiguang. Chen Fake used it to kill the head of the Red Spear gang. That doesn't really sound like a purely defensive art.

Thank you for your good wishes at the end of your message - I sincerely return mine to you. Your accusations of me are a bit unfair, but I don't really mind. I don't think that everyone else is crap and I'm not in this for kudos or popularity either. If I wanted to simply gain support, I'd bang on about "inner work" and "energies" like virtually everyone else in this game.

I am on a campaign, that's right. We need to smash the current monopoly that exists - the one that fills heads with new-age nonsense and keeps people hanging on in the hope of learning applications that never come. I get quite a lot of the students who have grown demoralised with their previous teachers. Teaching the how and the why of martial movement is my method. It isn't for everyone and I turn away a lot of students - ones who don't want to practice fighting skills (they are very welcome to stay if they will.) But really - there are literally millions of teachers who will just teach form (and they are often considerably richer than I am) so it isn't like there is no alternative to my approach. I'm here to challenge the monopoly and shake up their cosy exploitative world, that's all.

 

IMO, you are equating "yielding" to "folding in". It is possible to yield whilst moving forward and continuing to push an opponent.

See my previous point above.

I'm not sure what you're saying. I'm interpreting it as 'if you don't practice Chen style, then you're not doing taiji "right".'
I'll leave this point for you to elaborate so I don't take a wrong meaning from it.

I respect honesty, and so I will be honest with you too. IMO, your website does make you come across as if you are trying to put everyone else down, and promote yourself. As I said, this is my opinion, and I'm sharing it in the movement of honesty.

I tend to agree with most of this. Earlier this year MAP was plagued by a certain member who believed (and made his pupils believe) that he could stick the to the floor. Thankfully, his time here is over and Dunn with.

You've already seen my opinion on this, so I won't press the issue further.

A good list. I would also add anything written by Alex Kozma. The man has a deep understanding of Taiji, and you can really feel his power when he applies his techniques.

Agreed, Luchan died over a decade before Chenfu was born. I believe that it may be possible that the quote was passed down through the family until it reached Chenfu. Or perhaps it was written in a text from Luchan and Chenfu read it.
Of course, there is no way to prove either of these ideas, but I still believe it is a possibility. Also, I think it's a good quote.

I've already stated my opinion on Taiji as a self defence method as opposed to a fighting art. Of course, it could still be used aggressively, but IMO, it's primary method is defensive techniques, not offensive.

I still disagree, and say that IMO, such a crusade goes against the idea of Taiji, but I respect your opinions and wish you luck.

James

 

i think there are 13 ideas in tai chi and they are all martial

As for the defence/ offense issue. To my mind it is circular.. The best kind of defence may be offence. What i think causes some problems is that taichi specialises in making space and opportunity for efficient offence using defensive methods.

i think our newest member makes a good point that this largely depends on the situation. but i think we can all agree that if you are attacked you're gonna be fighting and you don't want it to last too darn long..

 

If you cant enjoy a bit of North/South ****-taking, what can you enjoy? My partner is Welsh so I get to engage in East/West abuse as well (great fun when losing to Wales at rugby). What a tribal little country we are... If you didn't take it personally, then good - it wasn't meant as anything other than ribbing. If you did, then spend some more time in the crisp northern air and get a thicker skin

Joanna - I originally posted to give you credit for wanting to head in the right direction, but then I read your site and you do come across as conceited. After "about a decade" of training 4 different CMA's, you write as though you have mastery in them - that may not be what you think, but that is what is communicated. I said nothing on here that I wouldn't say in person.

Anyway - good luck with the club and the training.

Paul

 

Sorry to nit pick, and I know it should be clear from the context but… Gladius technically refers to any sword in general (so could technically include a whip sword which has a longer reach than many spears).

The classic Roman short sword has several slight variations depending on the vague time period and geographical area including the gladius Mainz-Fulham and gladius pompei

So in other words best to just say Roman short sword or something of the sort.

 

Do you mean that taiji can be used for self defence!!!

I shall give up my ecky thump immediately! :bang:

 

'Scuse my ignorance (not being from these here parts)....
What is an ecky thump..it can't be wot I am thinking of!!

 

It was an ancient Yorkshire art resurrected by 'The Goodies' in the '70's practitioners wore hobnailed boots, flat caps and hit each other with black puddings!

So I wasn't pleased to see you - it was the lethal black pudding in my pocket! :Angel:

 

Hsing Yi Site found

One of the better site been to on Hsing Yi is

Emptyflower.com

thing is they use Direct X Which i dont have it has Hsing by Master Zhang think doing Chicken with monkey an so on also a 90 year old man does Monkey form nice site you will have to try to go there your self somtime.
Chose not to put the code in to connect due to not sure if it is with in the rule here or there.

 

Hello all. Points taken. Of course I can take a bit of regional ribbing. We Northerners are not as soft or as sensitive as our southern counterparts, you know.

I'm sorry if I have come across as someone who sees herself as a Master - of course I'm not. I do state on the website

What I can usually do is teach people how to become better fighters than they are already with Taijiquan fighting concepts. Even if you were are an 8/10 fighter and I was only a 7/10 fighter, it doesn't mean I couldn't help you to get to 9/10.

I chiefly try to speak up for the frustrated student and dare to say the things that others might not. I've had quite a lot of positive feedback from people who find the site refreshing. I think in my own obnoxious way, I'm trying to do a bit of what the punk movement did to the pompous and overblown music industry in the mid 70's, hence the Pistols iconography.

I want to challenge the "internal arts" orthodoxy and shake them out of their exploitative "qigong for enhanced workplace productivity" cosiness. I try to leave no stone unturned and say the things that frustrated Taiji students might want to say, but don't quite dare to, like "what does that mean in plain English?" I do strike a chord for many people who have felt very frustrated with their previous teachers.

If you enter "Tai Chi" as an internet search and trawl through the 3,780,000 results, you might understand why I come out fighting. :woo:

Re:

No, I'm not saying that, but I do think it is necessary to practice at full, explosive combat speed as well as slow and smooth sometimes - we explore many different qualities when practicing our forms, and we also think about when you'd need to emphasise smooth reeling silk rotation and when you'd use more of an undulating shockwave. I think that slow smooth movement only teaches some aspects of what you need for combat. I base this opinion not only on the words of Chen stylists (as well as many Dong stylists and Yang Banhou lineage people), but on observation. I think many Taiji people, by only ever practicing slow Yang style linked forms can leave themselves unable to move quickly when required to (i.e. during combat). The dynamics of Chen style forms can help, but you don't have to be a Chen stylist. I discussed this matter with Nigel Sutton at one of his seminars and he told me that he practiced his Zheng style form in a Chen style way sometimes.

In our school we practice slow, smooth & unbroken, but also at full speed, and dynamically fluctuating variations. Sometimes we bring out the drilling strikes, sometimes the elbows. Sometimes we add more stepping, rather than just pivoting the feet. On the whole we practice it with a lot more foot movement than is orthodox, because you can't afford to assume that you'll always be able to neutralise the oncoming force. Fixed feet push hands practice will teach you how to neutralise oncoming force in a way that you probably wouldn't otherwise learn, but it has its limits and I think it is OK to experiment a bit with different tactical preferences, just as many different versions of Taijquan exist and express ideas differently. You don't have to be Chinese to think for yourself and make your own decisions about things.

Far from advocating a single approach, I say good on anyone who practices Taijquan as a full-blooded fighting art and is prepared to pressure test it. I think it is a myth that the style has to be treated so very differently from other styles. The Chens generally accept that people will gradually progress from pure Yang (using muscle force) to 50% yin and 50% yang. To become more yin that that is not the aim. As George Xu puts it

 

jkzorya - I agree with much of what you're saying, but I don't agree with the way you're saying it - it's antagonistic and does smack of ego imo

Oh dear... I have a lady of 78 in one of my classes who has osteo-arthritis - but she loves her (non-martial) Taiji sessions - can you please explain how learning it as a martial art - and all the risks that would involve for her - is going to benefit her? Or how somehow not being allowed to do it at all if she doesn't learn it that way (presumably at some point some kind of Taiji police force will be formed to enforce your dictats... ) will likewise benefit her.
I teach both ways btw - martial for those who want it and non for those who don't.

Oh and -

(?) - no it doesn't: just that choice of translation suits your particular views.
"Taiji" means many things - yin and yang, supreme pole, grand ultimate, the union of opposites, ultimate theory of universal dynamics, way of balance...
But Great Extremes? I don't think so.... My favourite is 'yin yang boxing' these days...

We have a word for people who aggressively dictate over people's freedom of choice in this country - fascists.
I'm sure you aren't really one of those, but sometimes we all have a 'Falling Down' moment - you know the movie 'Falling Down'?
Where an ordinary joe finds himself way outside kansas... Anyway there's this bit towards the end when Michael Douglas' character looks baffled and says "You mean I'm the bad guy?"
The thing is, he doesn't realise is it was always up to him really, but he chose to focus upon everyone else as the source of his pain.
The great thing about webpages is they can always be reviewed and edited eh?
Me, I'm getting on with my training...
:Angel:

 

I just logged on to add (before I read Taiji Butterfly's last post) that a very important role that our website fulfills is to dissuade all non-martial students from even ringing us up in the first place. We teach every day and have 4 public classes per week, so we have previously had enquiries from hundreds of people who wanted anything and everything other than fighting ability from Taiji or Bagua. It will probably surprise you to discover that I actually don't like seeing the look of disappointment on people's faces when they turn up to do "that graceful stuff off the telly" and then feel scared as we practice fighting applications on each other and loud exposive strikes on spot pads. So we dissuade as many non-martial types as possible through the website before we even get chance to meet. The reason is simple. I love martial arts. If I wanted to be a dancer I'd pick something a lot more aesthetically pleasing than Taiji forms.

You are right about being able to update web pages though - I did so just before I came to this forum:

Cool huh? Well someone rang me today because he was "into the spiritual side." I asked him what he meant. He didn't know.

Now to those last comments:

Not my problem. Send her to a kickboxing teacher or a karate teacher - ask them to water down their arts just for her - let's share out the problem. Feng Zhiqiang is 78 too, I believe. He doesn't seem to have any trouble throwing people around. I have osteo-arthritis too incidentally and normally walk on two sticks. Maybe that's why I'm grumpy.

I suspect, like me, this lady might not be equipped to run away from trouble if she was attacked. Learning how to execute effective self-defense techniques might save her life. My motives are utterly benevolent - we live in a violent world and I don't want people to feel frightened. Why do you not believe, after all the hype about how Taiji doesn't rely on physical strength, that this lady could defend herself against an attacker? Why could she not deflect 1000 lbs of force using only 4oz? Isn't Taijiquan meant to be a martial art we can use even in our old age? I think the problem is that you lack faith in its efficacy as a martial art. I don't.

It isn't my fault Taiji has been taken and turned into something else. Why does she even want to do Taiji? Do you think she'd have wanted to train with Chen Wangting, Chen Changxing, Yang Luchan or Yang Banhou? I don't, because they did it properly.

Everyone has said it - Zheng Manqing said:

Dong Yingjie said:

Whenever I point out the non-optional nature of "the martial side" everyone freaks out. Why? Why does no one really take seriously what they said?

Looking in my Chinese dictionary:
Tai - highest; greatest; remotest.
Ji - the utmost point; extreme.
Quan - 1) fist 2) boxing.

I rest my case.

 

My teacher often said:
"You cannot appeal to a level of consciousness that does not yet exist"
I see what she meant.
:Angel:

 

Hi Joanna, bellow are some pints I would like to get your thoughts on, though just ignore them if you cant be bothered.

Personally, I don’t really see how this point is relevant. The first step in internal martial arts is health, only when the first is achieved can one progress further. Teaching ill people to fight is like teaching paraplegics to run, not very productive. If a beginner comes to your class and you push them to move in a quick/explosive manner without the relevant conditioning, you are doing them more harm then good. If this beginner is also ill chronically or not, such stresses would be detrimental to their health. Do you disagree?

So you have something against people pursuing better health through exercise? Besides, how do you know what the folk you mention thought of this subject and how they trained their beginners?

Have a look on here and see what you think - http://www.itcca.it/peterlim/training.htm

Question: Zheng Manqing took up Tai Chi because?

Answer: Ill Health

I reiterate, the first step is health, without it everything else is useless.

Chinese is a multi layered language, in other words characters and combinations of such, may have several meanings as opposed to one definite meaning. Like TJB pointed out and you posted above, all are relevant, you decide what you see.

Also was wondering, from reading stuff on your website, it seems to me like you fight a lot, is this true? Personally, I don’t usually take people seriously with regards to martial applications unless they have some experience in fighting, do you have such experience? How do you pressure test?

On a completely unrelated note, your last name “Zorya” means sunrise/dawn in old Slavic, and is commonly a Ukrainian last name. Are you eastern European in some way?

 

jkzorya,

Ignore the TJB Visage double act (does it still counts as a double act if they are both the straight man? Shouldn’t one of them be funny?).

Personally I whole-heartedly agree with your entire point of view regarding TCC (on a general level only, as I know nothing of Chen style), and would very much appreciate it if you stuck around on this forum to balance up the TCC dancers.


As for TCC being taught non-martially, I see nothing wrong with this as long as they don’t call what they do Tai Chi....or even tai ji. I would suggest, as a name, 'Misinterpreted Chinese Tai Chiu style dancing

 

How about Chinese yoga ?

 

Misinterpreted Chinese yoga, yeah, that works.

 

Firstly - thanks liokault.

Should I really ignore them though? I'll answer their questions this time, and if I feel that it is all leading nowhere or going round in circles, I'll know I should have listened to your advice. You are very welcome to say "I told you so" then.

To answer some questions:

As I have already stated, we build things up gradually and applications can be practiced very gently to begin with. But trust me, my tradition really teaches that the best way to refine movement is through hands on contact. It is only in relation to another being that we can make our actions responsive and thereby truly meaningful.

Stress in the form of physical exertion is not always detrimental to health either - it can help to make you better. Why do you think exercise is better for you than staying still? Because working your muscles stimulates your lymphatic system and this helps you to combat illnesses. Form training done correctly is arduous. Doing it with wrist and ankle weights (which plenty of people do, even in China) is a little more arduous again. Performing applications can be a little more arduous again, but doesn't have to be - you can start with very light pressure and you don't have to do applications at full speed to begin with.

Hmm - I wonder if you can remember where this line of questioning ended up on the Shi Kon site. I have previously encountered a whole heap of violence. These days, a combination of avoiding potentially hazardous environments and a more assertive posture and demeanour tends to deter trouble, but I've still had the occasional street battle and I do win.

More importantly, I train every day with varying degrees of intensity - so I pressure test with variable amounts of pressure, all depending on who I train with. You must understand, we train Taiji a bit like Judo or Ju Jitsu practitioners, so virtually all of our training involves contact. We just don't throw our Taiji movement principles out of the window when we apply the techniques because that would help no one. It helps to keep the majority of your training more in the spirit of martial research / science than competitive fighting - then you can land on your back with an "oof" and say "that was a good one" without losing face. We have a lot of fun.

Yes. If health is the goal, they should go and do something designed for the task, because they won't be willing to train Taijiquan properly and therefore won't get the full health benefits anyway. The reason I teach exclusively to martial artists these days, is because there will always be more people who want to do "a bit of healthful exercise" for a while, with virtually no commitment to learning the actual martial art you are trying to teach them with any accuracy or dedication. They'll almost certainly drop out anyway when it gets difficult and they clog up the classes and are a pointless drain on a teacher's time. I keep the martial folk, because they get enough of my attention to make it worth their coming.

Regarding Zheng taking up Taiji for health - sure, but that's not the point. We do occasionally get people who come initially for health and get good health benefits from practicing martially. I'll ask you guys a question. Why assume that people who want health will necessarily have an aversion to martial arts? If, as you say, Taiji is good for both, why can't you practice it martially and get good health benefits as a result? The health brigade seem to think you can only practice it for health OR for martial arts (at which point it seems to become bad for your health for some reason). You're just not doing it right because you don't really understand this beloved yin and yang you are so keen to talk about. You can't have one without the other - that means you can't remove the martial stuff. We don't remove the health benefits either, they are simply not the reason we train. Train Taijiquan as a martial art and you will get the health benefits, but you can't remove the martial aspect and still benefit - not fully anyway. Your magical, healing, health Taiji is not so great after all is it, if you cannot give your 78 year old a robust constitution and the ability to protect herself against thugs? Isn't fighting ability, not based on brute strength, that continues into old age, one of the main points of the art?

I think everyone assumes that martial practice will be clumsy and injurious - it doesn't have to be like that, and in fact, if you want to use Taiji properly for fighting, it shouldn't be clumsy and injurious during training. It isn't Taiji if you just bash someone and strain yourself. And if you yield and neutralise incoming force properly, you don't get injured. Resist, or use clumsy strength and you get clobbered. Baby steps... building it up gradually... You have a volume control on your sound system right? You can play your music at any volume? Or are you one of those people who only ever plays their music full blast?

Our basic philosophy is to go only as fast as we can control and only so slow that the movements remain meaningful (still have some momentum to work with - becuase real fights are never static.)

All these answers are on the website anyway, so read and re-read the articles and you'll save us all some time.