Tai Chi Advice and Resources Wanted

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by Calvin Kirk, May 4, 2020.

  1. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    CLC usually only taught bak mei to those already with a back ground in TMA and I know a southern mantis teacher who only taught students with a strong hung gar or CLF baxk ground for example , and to be honest the Hakka arts are easier to make work if you already have a back ground in a more straight forward art.

    The Chen guys seem to be more ready to do the additional stuff that makes arts work, ie sparring, clinch work, heavy weights weapons etc maybe for those coming to Yang whose teacher doesn't have those things in the system a back ground in another art might be useful
  2. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Well-Known Member

    To my knowledge you are correct. I do not know what training Sin The has before he came to the US. It is clear that he had something. He did not create Shaolin-do in a vacuum, from nothing.

    Knowing that he is ethnic Chinese, from Indonesia, makes a reasonable supposition that he had trained in a kuntao of some kind.

    But yes, that is my supposition, without any concrete knowledge.
  3. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    And a lot of MA people could really use a background in basic western boxing before studying most striking oriented eastern martial systems.But that's beside the point.

    Was CLC one of the founders or was this the preference of an individual teacher? I'll figure the SPM teacher wasn't a founder,so just an individual's preference. Sure, I know of teachers who insisted one had to learn this before you'd be taught that,but PK is the only only one I know of whose founder insisted on this. If CLC was an initial founder-and not just of a sub-branch-I'll be happy to add it to the list!

    Actually as usual it depends on the particular teacher.Of course if a teacher isn't teaching those things and the student doesn't already have it their students' TC isn't going to be that applicable.

    I don't know why folks seem to think the Chen system teachers are/have been more functionally oriented.Since the 1950s the predominant TC systems in open fighting comps and challenge matches have been Wu (Chien-chuan) and Yang (mostly in Cheng,Man-ch'ing's line). Admittedly there were a lot more practitioners of those two systems than Chen and of course WWII,the civil war/revolution and the Cultural Revolution totally screwed up evolution and advancement of all the CMAs in the homeland.

    Quite possible,but he could just have easily learned CMA things w/out Indonesian influences.One of my teachers was Chinese from Malaysia and he had only done-if you'll pardon the term-"straight" Hung Gar,Wu(C-c) TC and Yang TC .

    Sin The' did have background but he created Shaolin-do by amassing a lot of forms from other systems-from books,vids,etc, and not performed up to snuff according to practitioners of such systems. Their TC is certainly..... substandard even compared to a lot of the junky stuff out there. Their Hung forms leave a bit to be desired. Northern Mantis practitioners don't think much of the Mantis stuff they do.And the beat goes on.
  4. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Taiji requires body pull/push limbs and 6 harmony even in the

    - 1st move of the Yang Taiji form (open position stance) that you use body to pull the arms up, and use body to pull the arms down.
    - 2nd move of the Yang Taiji form (diagonal fly) that your foot coordinate with your hand, your knee coordinate with ....

    This is difficult to do for beginners who has no MA training. In the 7 star preying mantis, this kind of body unification (body pull/push limbs) and 6 harmony training are in the intermediate level training.

    Dr. Horst Herrlich said, "Algebra is like a tree. Modern algebra is like a forest. Today I want to talk about 'category theory' which is a set of forest".

    If one just jump right into "category theory" by passing algebra and modern algebra, that person can't go very far.

    Taiji came from the long fist system. In the following clip the Taiji cannon fist, you can see a lot of long fist basic. If you are good in the long fist basic stances and the transition among them, it will be much easier to learn Taiji after that.

    Last edited: May 10, 2020
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  5. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Many years ago I had a Taiji class in Austin community college. During the 1st day, I introduced the 8 basic stances. Before I finished the introduction, one guy stood up and said, "This is not Taiji." He then left.

    I also taught Taiji to a group of old people. When I taught them the application, they asked, "Do you expect us to fight in our age?"

    I don't know what make people to think that Taiji training can by pass basic stances training and application training.
  6. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Well-Known Member

    I agree, what he originally studied could have been anything. I also understand that he created Shaolin-do by cannibalizing material from other sources as well as simply making things up. I am not suggesting that Shaolin-do as it is today once existed as a kuntao. I am merely suggesting that Sin The may have begun with something that was an authentic kuntao (or something else altogether as you point out) and then built Shaolin-do on top of that. He may have begun with a legitimate system that he then morphed into something deeply questionable.

    Again, this is simply my speculation.
  7. Calvin Kirk

    Calvin Kirk New Member

    I've learned the first third of the Yang Lu-Chan form (from a video), enough to know I odn't like the explosive combat oriented movements, it's just not what I'm looking for. Seeing that guy move just looks and feels wrong, I almost feel like I can feel what it's like to move in that way by looking at him do it, and it doesn't feel right. Certain things just look wrong, certain parts of his body, I don't know how to really explain it, I'm just put off immediately by the way he moves. I couldn't tell you how bad he is or how good he is, all I know is I wouldn't want to move that way.

    Thanks. Is there a short form for each of those?

    That's interesting, do you know of any resources that teach those stances and transitions? I'm talking videos/books/websites.

    To me she looks better then the other guy, but I don't like how stiff her fingers are. Could a pro confirm if I'm right in thinking her fingers are too stiff?

    I forgot to quote the post but to the guy who suggested yoga I would like to get back into yoga, although the "poses" are much much less potent at "internal education" (I honestly don't know what to call it) then tai chi and qigong to the point I would solely practice kriya/pranayama if it wasn't for the fact that I have some mild nerve damage which now prevents me from comfortably holding the banda locks and performing ujayii breath (which are massively potent at internal "stuff") making the whole yoga route pointless, which is a real shame.
  8. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Just Google Wushu stances (modern Wushu came from long fist).

    The horse stance in this picture is too wide. It should be your shoulder width,

  9. Grond

    Grond Valued Member

    I appreciate the advice, thanks. But yeah as it turns out that particular video has had more than 5 million views. I did a search for Tai Chi and that video is #1, Jake's video was #2.

    Here's #3, for what it's worth. I found it ironic that of the three this is the only one where the speaker knows the mother language well.

  10. Grond

    Grond Valued Member

    I came across another Jake Mace video while binging Tai Chi videos. I have a simple question, is this really a proper Tai Chi technique? Because if this is "Tai Chi vs Boxing", I'm a little underimpressed. He's going to slip my jab, and slap my tummy? That's only going to make me mad, and by the way, he leaves himself wide open for a wicked counter doesn't he.

    As a side note I always find the Bruce Lee "be water" thing to be kind of funny. We're already mostly water.

  11. windwalker

    windwalker Member

    this teacher has a little different take on taiji that some might find interesting

  12. Grond

    Grond Valued Member

    That was interesting. So basically, the combat idea behind Tai Chi is to completely forget that the forms are slow and methodical, and when using for hand to hand, maximize aggression and get busy? I'd like to hear some opinions on that because it sums up most of what I've seen in what appear to be "legit" sparring videos of esteemed Tai Chi instructors online. Almost paradoxical in a way.
  13. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    You are not impressed by a video from someone you have already been told is largely seen as a fraud?

    Are you surprised by that? Seriously
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  14. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    Yes, "parting the wild horses mane" is a tai chi technique.

    In both my experience, and opinion, he's trying to fit a square peg in a round hole, though. (To me) it's not a back-handed slap to the belly. The technique of PWHM is to get in close, rotate the body, using the arms to break the opponents structure.

    I had a video from around 7 years ago where I did an on-the-fly demo of this. I'll try and find it.
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  15. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    Not the exact clip that I was thinking of, but that seems to have disappeared into the ether.

    This shows a more basic, quicker look at the idea.
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  16. Grond

    Grond Valued Member

    From what I gathered Jake Mace was taught by a fraud, I haven't seen anywhere that he's considered a fraud, except by association, which isn't necessarily fair. I wouldn't know either way. But from all appearances he appears to have some knowledge of Tai Chi, and this video was in the top 10 on Youtube, which is why I asked about this particular video, it appears to be a canonical Tai Chi movement (from the forms). But I was more curious about whether this was an actual application, slip and slap the chest, because if so...I'll need to understand who thought that would ever work.

    What I was really hoping for was a more refined opinion, so thanks Dan. That's what I was getting at, I saw a VERY popular video of an alleged Tai Chi technique. Vs Boxers no less. I wanted to know the wheat from the chaff.
  17. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Hi Grond, you really need to stop judging how knowledgeable someone is in TCC because it is a top find on Youtube IMO. Seriously, it is terrible criteria for judging good TCC. I would also question you saying from all appearances, he has some knowledge of TCC. Several practitioners here have told you the opposite, that he misses multiple basic fundamental principles of TCC.

    That said, see? You are starting to be able to discern the good from the bad - because you recognized that hand slap nonsense was stupid. :) The main application I have been taught is more like what Dan Bian describes. We are taught in both our TCC and our CLF that there are multiple applications though. If one WAS to use parting the wild horses mane as a block or a strike, it would be closer to a Biu Jong in CLF. A forearm (or even a fist) strike using the power of the extended arm with the waist twist to strike the opponent.

    I will refrain from pointing out the poor execution of technique all over that latest Mace video. Biting my tongue...........
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2020
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  18. windwalker

    windwalker Member

    A more recent demo

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  19. Grond

    Grond Valued Member

    To be fair, I'm not trying to judge anything. I just want to understand more. I found that particular Tai Chi vs Boxing video in one of the many Jake Mace subreddit forums, some of which are more serious than others. The person who posted it basically said "this is pretty much how I learned Tai Chi" alongside of a lot of references to his fraudulent instructor. A mixed bag, let's say. How about this one, "Personally I think he's a really cool guy, and a great martial artist. He gets a lot of hate he doesn't deserve." How many of you have heard of Jake Mace? What's your opinion on him? : martialarts

    I don't really jump to "somebody on the Internet said it's fake, so it's fake". I like to ask questions, that's all. I'm questioning why Jake Mace has so much support from the kung fu community, at the same time having so much animosity? It's probably not germane to my own study of Tai Chi, but hey it's a start. ;)
  20. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    Hang in he was taught by a fraud, and put videos out pretending to know things about various arts which any one with any skill level can tell he does not, and that isn't fraudulent to you?

    And from all appearance s he has knowledge of tai chi, to who, you the guy learning from videos?
    Do you not see how silly both above statements are?
    Seriously you would be better served talking to the local tai chi instructors near you to see when they are open for classes

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