Taekwondo Unity

Discussion in 'Tae Kwon Do' started by Spookey, Jul 29, 2011.

  1. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    Thank you & I also very much enjoy the exchange. It helps me to learn. While I am originally from the ITF side of the fence, my purpose here is HISTORY, which to me is what happened, who made it happen, when & where did they make it happen. This is factual in nature & proven rather easily, most of the time. The WHY is much more subjective & involves more opinion. I seek the truth & by posting here, I hope to be corrected, as that is how I learn, how I am educated & how I come closer to the truth of HISTORY. Those that fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it!
    While I have always been a history buff, I didn't join the MAs for a history lesson. However, since history intrigues me & TKD has greatly impacted my life in a very positive way, I feel it is required upon me to give thanks & credit those that made what we do possible. That is why I am so passionate about TKD's history.
    I also think it is criminal what happened to the ITFers by a brutal military dictator(s) via their KCIA & govt entities. The original TKD Pioneers need to be apologized to, before they leave this place & thanked for what they did. They along with the Kukki TKD Pioneers all deserve to be credited with giving the world TKD & introducing the world to Korea & its wonderful culture.

    Yes there is still a terrible stigma with Gen. Choi. That is lessening now, as SK is a true democracy. In 2000 they started an effort that formally took off in 2005, in creating a commission addressing the atrocities committed during the Korean Civil War, on both sides, but apparently more on SK's side. So the TKD matter & the KCIA matter will eventually get addressed by SK or if not, by history. But yes I understand that Gen. Choi's intelligence file is still sealed. I also think Gen. Choi was funded my the American CIA. Apparently Gen. Choi took money from the KCIA, the CIA & NK. He did ti for TKD & Korea. the world owes him a debt of gratitude. one that many don't know about, because of the nastiness surrounding TKD history & the period that its development took place in.
    Removing the stigma requires telling the truth & understanding the context of the times that this truth occurred in.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2011
  2. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    What other patterns?
     
  3. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    WTF vs ITF Sports Match Rules

    Both have advantages & disadvantages. But regardless of listing & comparing them, I would rather not train my MA according to sorts match rules, unless those rules are "anything goes"!

    In the ITF there are 6 types of sparring:
    1) pre-arranged sparring (3, 2 & 1 step)
    2) semi-free sparring
    3) free sparring
    4) model sparring
    5) foot technique sparring
    6) pre-arranged free sparring
    (Note: 4,5 & 6 are practiced by BBs)
    Notice there is no tournament or sports match rules listed. Your MAs training IMHO should be centered around free-sparring, where you are essentially FREE to use any & all available means for attack & defense. (Of course obvious safety measures to be employed). Mr. Anslow would call this traditional sparring. Whatever the name, it has to be done IMO & done often. This is in addition to the formal Hoosinsul or SD that comes in a red belt level.
    Original(ly) TK-D was devised in the ROK Army as a MMA (mix of the martial arts available to them) for SD
     
  4. Spookey

    Spookey Valued Member

    Lad_Gorg

    I am very familiar with how the kwan's spread and preserved their history and lineage, my American father is Ohdokwan Sabum #520. He was one of those chosen to carry and spread Taekwondo Ohdokwan. I myself am an Ohdokwan Sabum, and will carry on the traditions of Daehan Taekwondo Ohdokwan until the end.

    My correction is meant with no ill intent towards your Master. I am merely stating that in your organization there is a disconnect. Were there not a disconnect, your black belt certification would have been issued by the President of the Chung Do Kwan. Instead it is issued by a "sister organization".

    At the end of the day it is a piece of paper as is mine. However, a relationship with my father takes precedence to my uncle. Accordingly, I choose to maintain direct contact with my kwan (Oh Do Kwan), as opposed to it's sister, brother, or cousin.

    If your dan grade is not registered with your kwan, they may not know you. So long as my kwan lives, I want them to know me and that I live with them. I will not treat them as dead unless that time come, and then they will live with me!

    Personally, I believe every branch takes you farther from the trunk. Every seed, farther from the tree. This is why kwans issue dan membership. To keep the next generation from blowing away to another field and becoming another tree in another forest!

    TAE-KWON!
    Spooks
     
  5. andyjeffries

    andyjeffries Valued Member

    I was going to write to say that basically I'm done with this thread. I don't think either of us will change our opinion and we seem to be going round in circles.

    That doesn't mean I don't respect your opinion (or your entitlement to it), but this thread is taking up a lot of time replying and I don't think either of us are getting much from it now except a fun debate.

    That said, I'll reply to a last few points...

    I write it that way for two reasons:

    1) The Kukkiwon do and I am a Kukkiwon-style Taekwondoin so I follow their lead/recommendations (in much the same was as Ch'ang Hon guys followed Gen Choi's lead/recommendations).

    2) To me it makes more sense. The word Taekwondo is a single word made up of three parts. It's not (simplified) "kicking and punching, oh yeah, and a way of life" to me it's "a way of improving life by kicking and punching". One concept, one word.

    It's the same as Kendo, Aikido, Judo, etc. I know there are arts using hyphens in their name (Jiu-jitsu and Karate-do are two obvious examples) but I think the majority use one word and that feels more natural to me.

    ABSOLUTELY! I'm not saying yours is wrong and mine is right, I was asked how I perceived it so I wrote it.

    I think Shotokan Karate looks very "hard" when viewed in that way, but do they hit harder than us Kukki-Taekwondoin - not from my experiences cross-training with senior guys from our local club.

    The stop-start just makes it feel Staccato to me, unlike a flowing piece of art.

    As you said, though, it's all about how you see it.
     
  6. andyjeffries

    andyjeffries Valued Member

    I have no idea. I have always assumed you are, but it doesn't matter to this discussion whether you are a martial artist or a historian/librarian.

    Absolutely, but there can be guys who study the art (particularly the less athletic portions) and can teach it without being able to do it. For example, instructors quite often cannot do the more athletic aerial kicks, but they can teach other to be able to do them.

    Ignoring General Choi specifically at the moment, could you not envisage a point where someone had got to a low dan grade, then studied (watched, thought about, etc - but not doing too much physically) an art, made changes in how he'd want to do it and then wrote them down/got others to do it?

    I'm sure after that he could do those movements fairly precisely (as he defined what precise was), but he wouldn't necessarily be the most powerful or the most fluid in performing them because he hadn't spend X,000 hours on the floor doing them.

    Do you disagree with that potential scenario, ignoring that I might obviously be referring to General Choi?

    For example, I can coach my little boy playing soccer, having never played for a team or obtained a coaching badge (nor being particularly good at it), but I've watched 10,000 hours of soccer so I've picked up the differences in playing style, tactics, etc.
     
  7. andyjeffries

    andyjeffries Valued Member

    To be honest, I have difficulty coming up with a name because in my mind I tend not to think of this senior's contribution or that senior's, because for me it was a collective effort (which seemingly differs to the Ch'ang Hon viewpoint where it was all General Choi).

    I would guess at GM Uhm, Woon-kyu or GM Son, Duk-sung (although I don't think he did much to change it from it's Karate roots). GM Lee, Chong Woo has been very vocal and active, but I don't know how much he's pushed for specific changes and I don't know if he is senior to General Choi.

    It changes whether I like him or not. It changes whether I would still want to see him.

    I don't have traditional asian values that you ignore the misdeads of family members, I respect people based on their actions and it's not a fixed amount for life, it depends how they act for life.

    Aside from that, maybe it's also because the Kukkiwon seniors consider Taekwondo a group effort rather than "mine, mine, mine, all mine".

    Ha ha ha! This is the problem with unity. If I say he was "one of the founders of TKD" then are we in agreement? He covers his contribution to Taekwon-do and acknowledges the contribution of others to Taekwondo.

    If only we'd kept the name Taesoodo! :)
     
  8. Lad_Gorg

    Lad_Gorg Valued Member

    @ TKDstudent

    I don't really have any issues with Gen. Choi personally. I'm neither a member of the Chang Heon or the Kukkiwon, so my loyalism falls under neither category. I am, however, a member of GM Hyun Ok Shin's Chung Do Kwan, which to me is a style of Tae Kwon Do. I grew up with this image of what TKD is. To me, Chung Do Kwan was founded long before Gen. Choi began founding his ODK and later Chang Heon, so I do have a hard time swallowing the Gen. Choi pill.

    I do see his contributions to the art, as do I respect them, but accepting the claim that he is TKD's founder is a little harder to accept. It also seems like a political and egotistical ploy on his behalf; i.e. saying that anything else is a copy, or offshoot from something he's already done, and so that he has the right/pride to say that TKD is his baby. Yet with all respects, to me the original Kwans are more responsible for the creation of TKD than anyone man. So in my interpretation of history, the Kwans (GM/instructors/students) are more responsible than anyone induvidual.

    But TKD's history is open to MANY interpretations.
     
  9. Lad_Gorg

    Lad_Gorg Valued Member

    Dan-gun (name is different. there are slight variations between our two styles)
    Won-Hyo (we have a different name, I believe they are almost identical)
    Yul-Gok (different name, slight differences in preformance I might say, but the techniques are the same)
    Joon-Gun (different name)
    Toi-Gye (different name)
    Hwa-Rang (this one we share the name and pattern)
    Choong-Moo (same name same form)
    Kwang-Gae

    Beyond these, everything is foreign. For us these are all coloured belt forms, and when we reach 1st degree BB we learn Koryo and Kuemgang (I can't speak for anything further than 1st Dan because I was never attentive about forms :p ), however i think this can be the efforts of the Kukkiwon trying to unite the old kwans.

    It should also be noted that the preformance of these forms are different between Chang Heon and CDK. Obviously you use the SW, our forms look more like Shotokan.

    Also to add to this list:

    Won-Hyo - Heian Nidan
    We practice a form which shotokan guys call Heian Yondan, seems you ITF guys don't have it.
    We also have something familiar with Heian Godan

    Of which are Shotokan Kata. You can look for other corrilations, however.

    * all ITF tul are based on Jaroslow Suska's youtube videos.
     
  10. Lad_Gorg

    Lad_Gorg Valued Member

    I'm not to sure about the origins of all the forms practiced by the CDK. But I'd like to add that the CDK does not just practice the Pinan of Shotokan, and are actually fully independant from these roots.

    From my observations GM Shin's CDK is especially large, when it comes to forms. We have 11 gup ranks, of which each gup has two forms, with 1 form usually coming from the previous rank (not the case with WB obviously). My memory has grown foggy on our totaly set of forms, but soon i'm going to contact the headquarters for the full cirriculum; you may PM me if you want to see the list.
     
  11. Spookey

    Spookey Valued Member

    So you are actually an practicing Chung Do Kwan - Tang Soo Do, with the Chang Heon hyung added in? This would basically be the essence of Korean Karate meets Chang Heon Taekwondo!

    However, your dojang practices the same forms (Chang Heon) with different names...what are they called, and do you have any video to reference?

    TAE-KWON!
     
  12. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    Great post! Thanks
    BTW Did your Father ever get an ITF International Instructor Certificate or a Numbered DoJang Recognition Plaque?
    If so, what are those numbers, if you don't mind sharing?
     
  13. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    PLEASE DO NOT STOP!
    I am enjoying these exchanges & you are making me think deeper, as well as work harder.
    I am not trying to change your opinion, as you are entitled to your own opinion. I am only trying to get you to see things from another viewpoint & think deeper.

    Thank you. Can you tell me why the KKW & WTF decided to write it that way?
    I can not find a reason why from their perspective. I read something by an ITFer that stated the reason, but I don't trust that & was wondering as a Kukki TKDin you could explain why.
     
  14. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    No I don't disagree at all, in fact I agree 100%.
    I would add that Gen. Choi, because of his position, was able to assemble a very talented & experienced team, who he used to showcase their KMA. Not many people could be in a position to put a team of supermen on the floor to perform for you. In fact, several of the Original TKD Pioneers, said that other than basic training, that all recruit soldiers had to go through, they rarely if ever had to wear their military uniform, as their uniform of the day was usually a DoBok! Ok, to be fair, it was really a karate gi in those days ;)
     
  15. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    Quote: Originally Posted by TKDstudent
    Name ONE, just ONE, come on now, please give us ONE NAME!
    I can give one possible name, but am not sure if he was actually senior to Gen. Choi or how seniority is being defined.
    Thank you for your reply & your honesty. If is very admirable.
    Please allow me to share my thoughts:
    1st we have to define seniority! Some in Korea look at it by age, or when they started the MAs, or by station/career/education in life. Others by rank, date of rank etc. I reject the rank thing, as you may studied 10 years & be a 2nd dan & I could have studied 6-7 years & be a 3rd Dan. Westerners I think are more concerned with the belt rank, but since standards vary, that is of less use to me.
    However there were 7 Koreans that went abroad to seek a better life (word, education, etc), as Korea was an occupied country. While overseas, they also studied MAs, 6 of them in Japan, 1 of those in Manchuria & Japan, with the last 1 studying in Manchuria. All 7 learned karate, 1 of them from a book & then when he worked with the others back in Korea, while that 1 & 1 other studied CMAs. Documentation for all is limited. However 2 of them are actually listed as teachers & 4th dans in a karate book. One of those may have also made it to 7th Dan in karate.
    That being said, we can look at ages. Gen. Choi was not the oldest, nor was he the youngest. He was one of the more educated, but probably not the most educated, however it is pretty clear that he had the higher station in Korean life & society. He definitely did not start training in the MAs before most of the others! I give little weight to his Taek Kyon training claims, as he himself explained later on that his calligraphy teacher only exposed him to some few basic things & or told him stories about it.
    If I recall correctly Master Lee Won KUK was older, more educated & started his training earlier. Dr.Yoon was the 7th Dan & listed as a teacher in a karate book, so he was senior & most likely more educated. The rest are pretty even. But NONE of them, except one, GM Ro Byung Jik, played any direct role in creating TKD! he was younger than Gen. Choi, not as educated, nor did he attain anywhere near as high a station in Korean society/life. So Lee flees to Japan in 1950, when Chun & Yoon disappear during 1950 (Civil War). That leaves GM Hwang Kee & Dr. Yoon, but both of them refuse to join the TKD movement & stay karate, with GM Hwang Kee making Su Bak Do, as his version of the real authentic KMA connected to Korea's past. While Dr. Yoon was comfortable with his karate roots & name, both he & GM Hwang Kee rejected the sports emphasis, as they taught & wanted to maintain Traditional MAs!
    So of these 7 Koreans, only the Founder of the CDK, was clearly senior to Gen. Choi in most ways of defining senior!
    None of the 2nd generation leaders were senior to Gen. Choi in any way of looking at seniority mentioned above, as they all studied under 1 of the 7 Koreans who were older & studied MAs abroad, before the occupation ended & MAs started in Korea.
    (This IMO is why so many detractors try to say Gen. Choi was not a martial artist, as he clearly was senior to them all & equal to GM Ro Byung Jik of the SMK. Just because Gen. Choi was usually seen in an army uniform, as that what Generals dress in, doesn't mean he was not a martial artist. BTW many of the soldiers trained in army fatigues & not doboks, sorry karate Gis)
    ;)
     
  16. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    Yes, but that doesn't change the fact that your Uncle did good &/or great things for you before. If he did good things, he has to get credit for that, does he not? It is perfectly reasonable to decide that now that you found out how poorly he treated your Aunt, that you wish to curtail your future relationship with him, but that doesn't change the fact that he DID DO GOOD by you in the past!

    I think you are right, they do think of it that way. However that does not stop them from simply listing & or crediting the many important people of the group, does it?
    I am telling you that the reason that they don't list or credit, is that they have told the world TKD is 2,000 years old!

    Yes of course we would be in agreement. I have no problem with that, as I already state that, as he was one of the principle founders of Taekwon-Do. My phrasing gives him due credit, while also making it clear that it was his TK-D that he was responsible for, not for Kukki Taekwondo.
    YES I wish it stayed Taekwon-Do & Tae SOO Do!
    ;)
     
  17. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    You are correct, the CDK started in 1944, the ODK in 1954. That is factual, no problem from me. The CDK was a top player, if not THE TOP PLAYER, in making both major styles of TKD, ITF & WTF. The CDK is entitled to & free to apply the label of TKD to it.
    But I think you are making it clear that you don't do ITF or Chang Hon TKD, nor do you do WTF or Kukki TKD. Therefore I assume that you feel that there is a difference.
    Am I right in my conclusion?
    If so, then since we are talking about 3 DIFFERENT entities, then it stands to reason that there are at least 3 different founders.
    GM Lee Won Kuk, may be the most important Korean martial artist of his time. However he had little to directly do with making TKD. He made Tang Su Do. His students however played vital roles in making TK-D & TKD. There is no doubt about that. However each of the kwans were doing Korean karate, not the 2 styles of TKD that eventually came into development starting in the 1950s in the military, which he was not in & long after when GM Lee fled to Japan (1950) & long after the civilian side started with Tae Soo Do in the 1960s. Of course he did come back to Korea & give some input, but it really was after the fact.


    There is little doubt that Gen. Choi was the principle founder of military Taekwon-Do or ITF TKD, is there? Please do not get this fact mistaken with the larger TKD of the KKW & WTF, or the many independent TKD groups.
    Of course his rhetoric was a political ploy & he had an ego. Bit that was in his battles with the SK military generals who took over by coup, ruled via brutal violence & stayed in power for 31 years, by killing enemies, locking them up, casting them away from the country, fixing elections, changing the constitution(s) etc. Gen. Choi was made to be seen as an enemy of the Korean people by the people who were killing & locking up innocent Korean people! Gen. Choi was a leading & outspoken political dissident, leaving a life of exile, using what tools he had available to fight 3 successive military generals that were beyond evil. Not everyone of Gen. Choi's counter-attacks & offensives were 100% righteous, but he was fighting evil. You do realize that the 1st military general was killed by his own KCIA director, after he made himself president for life, the next 2 were sentenced to death for the crimes against humanity that they suffered on the Korean people. This is all factual & part of history. I am not making it up. if you don't understand this, you can't fully understand TKD's history & development.

    But TKD's history is open to MANY interpretations.[/QUOTE]
    NO NOT REALLY!
    But all of TKD's history is traced to 7 Koreans, Gen. Choi being one of them, who studied MAs outside of Korea. These 7 Koreans opened the 6 early kwans or started teaching MAs in Korea from 1944-47. Two of them, Gen. Choi & GM Ro, played a direct role in making TKD. The students of all 7, also played a part in making TKD.

    So it is not interpretations that are different, but rather the telling the 2 different stories of how the 2 different TKDs were developed. Again it is not interpretation that is the cause of the misunderstanding or the controversy, but rather the calling of different activities by the same name, then bickering over who did what, when it was 2 different groups that actually did 2 different things.
    Think of it as:
    military TKD vs civilian TKD
    SD TKD vs Sport TKD
    MA TKD vs Martial Sport TKD
    Chang Hon TKD vs Kukki TKD
    ITF vs WTF
    original TKD vs Olympic TKD
    small TKD (ITF) vs BIG TKD (WTF)
    Taekwon-Do vs TaeSOOdo

    Whatever you call it, just realize that it is 2 major or different entities, using the same label that causes the problem. I have no quarrel with any MAist, especially with my fellow KMAists, as we have more in common that differences, even that same confusing name! ;)
     
  18. Lad_Gorg

    Lad_Gorg Valued Member

    Well I'll look into it some more. But we don't practice the full Pinan (Pyungang) set. We also have some forms which are fairly unique to us.

    God I wish the TKD schools would patent their stuff.

    As I said, I'll contact my headquarters soon. I forgot the names and the full set. I'll try and get some recorded videos, and hopefully the sources of these forms.
     
  19. Lad_Gorg

    Lad_Gorg Valued Member

    Now this is the way that I view TKD, and I believe that this is the point that Spookey is trying to make (please correct me if I'm wrong). I quite like that statement that there are 3 founders of the art, but I'll gladly extend that to all of the 7 kwan founders as well as Gen. Choi and the Kukkiwon.
    However, I use TKD as somewhat of an umbrella term for all Korean martial arts that share strong roots with Shotokan.

    And like this we have the Chang Heon "ryu", Kukkiwon "ryu", and the various styles of the Kwans that all fall under the category of TKD. Just as in Japan/Okinawa we have Karate; which can be used to describe Goju Ryu, Ryuei Ryu, Shotokan, Wado Ryu, Shinto Ryu, etc. In China there are many forms of MAs that can roughly fall under the name Kung Fu, or Wushu.

    Call it naive, but I just don't see why there needs to be all this fuss about who did what first since there are so many different people responsible for what is now "TKD". So an open invitation to tell me why it is so important that only Chang Heon is called TKD; under the guildlines that I have set.

    Ok I get it, you RLLLLLLY like Gen. Choi. Trust me I can go on for hours about Bruce Lee too :p
     
  20. Lad_Gorg

    Lad_Gorg Valued Member

    Hence the WTF and ITF :p Also why I think that people should have a choice into which TKD they want to get into.

    I guess I used un-clear terms :S

    Agreed!!


    Haha, I couldn't agree more.


    A good punch, is a good punch, is a good punch. Likewise; a good kick, is a good kick, is a good kick. Who has the better techniques/more training, has the edge. Indeed scrapps are rather "unrefined" knowing how and where to hit can be a real game changer. But that's another thread for another day.

    Sorry I consider all MAist as students. I guess replace student with Martial Artist. But you're right the instructor has the burden of teaching the student what will work, and what is just "art".

    Oh wow!! I have never known a school to include this as part of their syllabus. For us it was a more un-formal activity; so long as you were off the floor, you could practice this with whoever was willing. Is this common in all Chang Heon/ITF schools?
     

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