Taekwondo similar or not to Kyokushin karate?

Discussion in 'Tae Kwon Do' started by Zatoichi1, Dec 23, 2010.

  1. Osu,

    I started kyokushin in the 80'es and was pleased to find a dojo when i moved to Ningbo.
    My business are in China.

  2. belltoller

    belltoller OffTopic MonstreOrdinaire Supporter

    Have you studied continuously since you began?

    Well, its fair to say you know Kyokushin kaikan, then.
  3. belltoller

    belltoller OffTopic MonstreOrdinaire Supporter

    I had meant to include this...hope it doesn't triple post...

    How do you compare the level of training you are getting now in the PRC with what you had in the U.K?

    What are some of the major differences as far as intensity, expectations from your instructors/Master, etc
  4. TaekwonPRO

    TaekwonPRO Valued Member

    Well, Taekwondo has better kicks, but Kyokushin has an AWESOME sparring system.
  5. Master Betty

    Master Betty Banned Banned

    Straight up false mate. Some arts have more BS than others and thats just a fact. I don't know where this "must respect all martial arts" thing is apparently written.
  6. Master Betty

    Master Betty Banned Banned

    If I had to stand and let a TKD guy kick me or a kyokoshinkai, I'd prefer the TKD guy. Being able to do a lot of different kicks - the vast majority of which aren't feasible in most situations - does not make a better kicker. The simple body mechanics employed by kyokushinkai make them better kickers in general.
  7. TaekwonPRO

    TaekwonPRO Valued Member

    Both kicks use the same body mechanics, taekwondo just practices it more often, hence our kicks are GENERALLY better.

    More flashy and different kicks? Sorry, I don't know ANY TKD practitioner who throws 360 flying crescent kicks in a fight. It's our equivalent of tricking, it's something we do for fun. The most thrown kicks in a taekwondo match are roundkicks, sidekicks, and back kicks, in that order. The fanciest kick you will see on a regular basis at a tournament is a spinning hook kick.

    Please stop coming onto this forum just to bash Taekwondo if you obviously don't know much about it. Criticism is always good, but all out bashing ON OUR TAEKWONDO FORUM is unnecessary.

    I don't go on your Muay Thai forum and tell you guys how bad your punching is compared to boxing.
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2012
  8. Hummmm... I'd be very careful with a good TKD player; his back kick might hit your spine; some hit like mules! :eek:

    I do not think so, I don't know much about TKD and never practiced it, but it seems to me that kyokushin is much more grounded with body mechanics geared for power, while TKD is very bouncy and reactive, geared for speed. :cool:

    The mechanics for power generation in kyokushin are internal, we don't have things like sine waves, etc...

  9. TaekwonPRO

    TaekwonPRO Valued Member

    Hey Kyokushin,

    I have only ever seen sine waves (to a limited extent) in ITF Taekwondo. When I do Olympic sparring, I bounce around a lot. However, the schools I have gone to also have had very Karate based sparring and fighting methods that are very grounded. After all, Taekwondo is largely descended from Karate.
  10. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    Similar mechanics but not the exact same. One of the folks who trains with us occasionally has had a black belt in TKD for years but found the Kyokushin method of the roundhouse kick different in some respects. He's actually come to be quite a fan of it as he claims it's much more powerful as the movement of the arms, the positioning, the use of the supporting foot, and the use of the knee all add to it. Take it as anecdotal evidence only though. It's also interesting that knockdown fighting also allows a lot of kicks that the vast majority of TKD sparring does not.

    I can also say kicks are a huge part of Kyokushin training (as my sore legs will attest to today), thus claiming they practice them more often is subjective, as well as claiming their kicks are generally better simply because you feel you practice kicks more often is also subjective.

    If you make an opinion someone doesn't agree with, they're free to disagree.
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2012
  11. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    I love it when my opponents are bouncy. Low kicks and leg sweeps make things that much easier.
  12. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    This is actually from another forum I post at, where for another poster I compared TKD rules and Kyokushin rules. Somewhat relevant.

    From my understanding, the Olympic style of TKD sparring began around the 1960s when they started fighting with chest protectors on and scoring matches similar to a boxing match. Apparently though this wasn't too popular as Choi Hong Hi didn't like this as much like Funakoshi he didn't want people sparring. Now they have the current WTF rules with the headgear, chest protector, and shin pads and whatever else they use.

    From this link (ftp://users.primushost.com/members/j/m/jmont/tkd/2005_wtf_rules_int.pdf), it says you can use fist techniques against the body but only to the chest protector, which in this ruleset makes it useless with the chest protector on as what's it really going to do to your opponent? Also, they give 1 point for striking the trunk and 2 for the face, so if you want the most points you're constantly going to be kicking anyways. You're also penalized for leg strikes and cannot use knee strikes. Not sure what their best scoring techniques are, but comparing theirs and Kyokushin you can see there's a difference. Since you also get points per technique, this is where you see the running kicks and the multiple kicks with one leg come into play.

    Kyokushin kumite came about a bit differently. Oyama was the opposite of that mindset: he wanted it to be as realistic as possible (hence, "jissen kumite") and did not want any kind of protection to be used whatsoever. They fought that way for some time, including bare knuckle strikes to the face, until there was a stir for the way he was fighting due to illegal prizefighting rules in several countries (where bare-knuckle fighting fell under that definition). Also dental bills can get kind of high too, I imagine. Oyama had the choice of adding protection to fight that way, but Oyama decided to simply eliminate hand and arm strikes to the head so they could continue fighting full contact without protection.

    Kyokushin sparring is decided on an "ippon" basis, or full point. You score an ippon if you score a technique that drops your opponent for more than 3 sec or your opponent gives up. You can also score "waza-ari", half point, by knocking your opponent down or sweeping them followed up with a non contact strike. If it goes to "yusei", the fighter with superior skill and spirit will get the decision. Most wins are decided by kicks or knees to the head, body punches that knock the wind out of your opponent or break their ribs, or kicks to the legs that make your opponent unable to continue. Since there's no points awarded other than those that knock your opponent down or make them unable to continue, exchanges can be vicious. You can also see a type of Kyokushin fighter who would never do well in WTF rules: one who stays in close, punching and kneeing with the occasional low kick but never kicking above the waist. All techniques are allowed except the following:
    # Hand or arm strikes to the face, head, or neck
    # Kicks to the groin.
    # Head thrust or butts.
    # Kicks to any part of the knee
    # Grabbing or holding an opponent or his/hers DOGI. (Though some tournaments, i.e. the Sabaki Challenge, now allow this.)
    # Elbow strikes to any part of the opponents back.
    # Striking or kicking an opponent who has been downed, unless the attack immediately follows the sweep or downing techniques in which case contact is not allowed.
    # Making an attack from the floor after having been downed by the opponent. (This should not be confused with an opponent defending himself whilst on the floor).
    # Failing to obey the referee's instructions during the bout.
    # Any other techniques or practice that the referee of the contest shall decide is improper or unfair.

    So it's interesting to see where two arts began at about the same area, but they've evolved very differently. You can see the differences in the two videos below. Interestingly, I saw no punches in the TKD sparring.

    TKD Sparring:
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhJ5HGPS158"]WTF Sparring - YouTube[/ame]

    Kyokushin Sparring:
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rn8saFJ3Qq8"]Another Famous Kyokushin KO Video - YouTube[/ame]

    As a final video (this is not to stir up style vs style drama), this is what appears to be a Kyokushin fighter against a WTF fighter. I think the main reason why the WTF fighter lost is due to the lack of punching they typically do, he didn't have anything useful once they were up close which is exactly where jissen kumite tends to be.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iedxtg0N_KE"]Karate VS WTF Taekwondo - YouTube[/ame]
  13. Master Betty

    Master Betty Banned Banned

    The body mechanics are different for a number of reasons. When it comes down to it, you simply can't throw a decent roundhouse (or "turning" in TKD) kick from a side on stance. That alone instantly changes the mechanics of the kick. Never mind kicking with the instep, chambering the knee etc.

    As for virtually any kick besides a roundhouse and a push kick, the chances of you landing them clean with effect versus their energy output and retrieve-ability - if that is a word - are much much slimmer. There's a reason you don't see many guys in MMA, K1 and shoot boxing etc. busting out spinning back kicks very often and it's not because "those guys can't do it". Indeed, I doubt theres a kick in TKD you wont find in virtually every other martial art that involves kicking. Most of them don't do them because either A) the initial "philosophy" of the art is to stay grounded etc. or B) the ruleset discourages it. In the case of muay thai, which you brought into this discussion btw, for the record, it doesn't discourage any techniques. It simply rewards those that work. And they STILL don't use those kicks.

    With the exception of the sidekick and the spinning back kick the rest of them are virtually useless in a situation where your opponent can catch a kick, kick low or attack when you turn your back. And even those two kicks are nowhere near as reliable as the roundhouse and push kick.

    As for the boxing comment, you could say that, then I'd laugh. That might've held true in the 60's....
  14. 6footgeek

    6footgeek Meow

    I have just one thing to say really. i believe that the difference in mechanics and the strategy applied in TKD can benefit Kyokushin too. just like we learned to incorporate kicks from muay thai.

    I have noticed in matches i have watched that people with springier legs and fast kicks have had a definite advantage in distancing and positioning and can pull off kicks under extereme pressure. *and in my knowledge TKD is supposed to specialise in that, no?*

    i got this feeling again after an ex TKDer joined our dojo and sparred with me for the first time, where i made the same observation.
  15. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    I can feel a collaborative article coming on with MB, me and maybe liero and Kuma detailing the mechanics and pros/cons of various styles of turning kick. TKD has at least two, the WTF kick being different to the ITF kick for example (the latter is much more like the karate kick).

    The ITF kick itself is used differently depending on ruleset; in competition without sweeps for example it can be used from a chambered position to execute multiple kicks which one could argue is a different kick entirely.

    As with all things, the techniques used under each ruleset tend to be those that work under that ruleset, which surely can't come as a surprise to anyone.

  16. 6footgeek

    6footgeek Meow

    i'd like that. Fish of doom's article on tsukis was very useful for me, i hope to make use of your knowledge too =D
  17. Master Betty

    Master Betty Banned Banned

    In my, albeit limited experience, it seems to be the opposite. The strongest kyokushinkai i tend to see are those with a strong foundation, a total disregard for shin pain and a willingness to shrug off shots and return with a furious flurry of their own.
  18. Master Betty

    Master Betty Banned Banned

    Just to illustrate the mechanics of the kick I was talking about, here's one of the guys at my gym doing some technical padwork - watch the kick.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRacPmm0Xeo&feature=related"]tommy on pads with Sorn - YouTube[/ame]
  19. TaekwonPRO

    TaekwonPRO Valued Member

    Nice kicks...and a great gym, I wish our place looked more like that...:cry:
  20. Master Betty

    Master Betty Banned Banned

    thanx, thats half of one of the 3 rooms, not including the weights room :) Recently had randy couture come visit - out of the blue! - and everything!

    The guy in the video is Tommy, he does a far portion of the coaching in the gym but his style is very obviously passing down to his students and they all seem to kick like that. I dare someone who uses that tired old "yeah but thai kicks are slow" argument to watch that and tell me those kicks aren't every bit as fast as any other kind of roundhouse.

Share This Page