Taekwondo - Revolution

Discussion in 'Tae Kwon Do' started by Spookey, Apr 12, 2010.

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  1. MadMonk108

    MadMonk108 JKD/Kali Instructor

    If you teach the Juche tul, then yes.
     
  2. MadMonk108

    MadMonk108 JKD/Kali Instructor

    Hey Master Cole, when was the last time you were on Bullshido?
     
  3. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    Last edited: Nov 30, 2011
  4. MadMonk108

    MadMonk108 JKD/Kali Instructor

    You're right. I'll get right on it as soon as I finish drilling my Final Solution Kata.
     
  5. Theforgotten

    Theforgotten Drifting Aimlessly

    This is exactly why we need to leave the nationalist BS out of martial arts. I have seen Juche performed and it is a pretty dynamic form. I could certainly see someone wanting to learn it for its technical merits, so why are we going to accuse them of supporting a repressive regime just because they choose to teach and/or learn a tul for its technical merit? Are we going to start accusing Shotokan practitioners of supporting emperor Tojo and the Japanese military of world war 2 just because Shotokan was used to train the troops and instill a sense of national pride? How about Wushu and the CCP or Sambo and the military of Soviet Russia? This kind of ignorant BS has no place in the martial arts.

    Edit: I'm not directing this at you personally, MadMonk108. I'm just using your post to address another problem that seems to plague TKD.
     
  6. MadMonk108

    MadMonk108 JKD/Kali Instructor

    It's not nationalistic BS. I've spent way too much time with escapees from North Korean concentration camps to even consider it nationalistic BS. Tojo's soldiers are not killing anyone anymore. The Soviet Union has fallen.

    Juche will kill tens of thousands this year alone.

    If you teach Juche tul, you should be ashamed of yourself. This kind of ignorant BS has no place in anyone who considers themselves a human being.
     
  7. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    LOL. You been watching Equilibrium again or something!

    The final solution would probibly be for fake master Cole to get rid of Ch'ang hon TKD altogethor.. he'd love that!

    I know many dislike the NK Juche thing.. me too as a philosophy, but deeper research (as I have done), shows that it originated in China, and the NK take on it is just that.. their (his) twist take on it and not like the original at all! But thats a whole new discussion me thinks!

    Stuart
     
  8. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    Oh, be warned.. apparently Cole does Taekkyun as well, and subscribes to this notion!!! Despite the Korean Taekkyun Research Institute saying different!

    Feel free to correct if I`m wrong Al!

    Stuart

    Ps. As you like the news so much and feel its spells the 100% truth, I find it funny how you support Zhao Lei, despite the news about him... http://www.wantchinatimes.com/news-subclass-cnt.aspx?id=20111027000080&cid=1103 .. even trying to convince people that the news is wrong numerous times over! Cognitive dissonance me thinks! Or plain old hypercrite!

    Stuart
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2011
  9. MadMonk108

    MadMonk108 JKD/Kali Instructor

    Sorry bro, your research was wrong. It didn't originate in China. It originated in North Korea. Nowling's conclusion shows a good deal of ignorance as to the way Sinokorean is used.
     
  10. MadMonk108

    MadMonk108 JKD/Kali Instructor

    Interesting. I've been looking for other Taegyeon practitioners in the US.
     
  11. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    Sorry, but I have researched this further and did a quick Wiki search just for tonight.



    So even though the influence of Mao Zedong is also not formally acknowledged in North Korea, WPK ideologists and speech writers began to openly use Maoist ideas, such as the concept of self-regeneration, in the 1950s and 1960s. Maoist theories of art also began to influence North Korean musical theater during this time. These developments occurred as a result of the influence of the Chinese Army's involvement during the Korean War, as well as during the Sino-Soviet split when Kim Il-sung sided with Mao against Soviet de-Stalinization. Kim attended middle school[19] in China, he was conversant in Chinese, and he had been a guerrilla partisan in the Communist Party of China from about 1931-1941. The postwar Kim Il-sung regime had also emulated Mao’s Great Leap Forward, his theory of the Mass line (qunzhong luxian), and the guerrilla tradition. Juche, however, does not exactly share the Maoist faith in the peasantry over the working class and the village over the city.

    Kim may deny it, but its roots are in China! But a twisted version as I said!

    Either or, I`m no Korean or Chinese historian.. it was research for that article!

    Still, none of this proves any point that Al Cole made, except that NK is a terrible country, with a terrible regimn.. but we all know that anyway!


    Stuart
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2011
  12. Theforgotten

    Theforgotten Drifting Aimlessly

    Hmm, I consider a form to be a collection of techniques and movements that express principles of combat and combat applications, not a vehicle to transmit political ideologies. This is what I mean by BS - it is a technically impressive form that looks like it takes a lot of skill to become proficient at performing. Adding the ideology of Juche to it is not necessary, and it just ruins what could've been a universally respected form. These things should be based on technical merit, not political ideologies and the like. I don't practice the Chang Hon forms to honor the Korean patriots and history, I practice the Chang Hon forms to gain the extra technical benefits that they offer and to extract the possible combat principles and applications that lie within them. I'm more concerned with practicing and perfecting the technical aspects of the art than getting caught up in the politics and other baggage that we could do just fine without having. If another learns Juche for that reason, then I won't look down on them as a human being because I know how to separate the technical martial art from the political and ideological nonsense that gets draped on top of it. If it was not named Juche and it did not have the other connotations, then plenty of people would be ready to sing its praises, but since such a harmful ideology has been added on to it, then teaching and practicing it is now considered a sin. Politics and such ideologies do not make one a better martial artist, they only get in the way of harmonious practice. I've never learned Juche, and I don't practice the form. I've seen it being performed and thought it looked pretty good, but I personally didn't like the fact that it was called Juche and that it had all of this other nonsense thown onto it to give it a meaning (or perhaps was created as a vehicle for it in the first place). There are plenty of people who practice Juche who do not support the politics behind it or what goes on in NK, and there are plenty of people who don't practice it but commit atrocities on a daily basis. Practicing a mere form in a martial art does not make one a sympathizer to political ideas, and this is what we must move beyond. Are we practicing to increase our technical skill and understanding of combat principles, or are we practicing for political reasons?
     
  13. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    I think its against the TOS for me to mention it. But I can say, its has a very truthful and factual history of Ch'ang Hon tkd.. unlike any other published before, by a noted (and credible) TKD historian!



    Stuart
     
  14. aaron_mag

    aaron_mag New Member Supporter

  15. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    Wow.. cheers.

    Yes, you are right of course. I was just annoyed last night when I noticed it.

    I dont mind a bad review if someone doesnt like the book, as long as its honest. It was the unrelated part of the whole thing that annoyed me, as the book has nothing to do with this discussion and if people can't take being pulled up on a complete fabrication of something, then they shouldnt post made up things on forums! It was just so childish and vindictive!

    Stuart
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2011
  16. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Giving someone's product a bad review because you've had an internet kerfuffle with them = weak. Pretty low. Kind of calls into question any notion of upholding the tenet of "integrity" in my book.
    Especially considering that as TKD books go Stu's is the 5th dan to their 10th kup.
     
  17. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    This is a good point. I would add that we do have differences & that is fine, as long as we understand the differences.
    For example,when it comes to the history of TKD, we have a common start,which is of course karate from Japan, mixed with the culture of Korea. Once this started to happen the paths of development started to vary. So we have to realize that all TKD has shared roots AND then different paths of developmental priorities. Therefore the telling the of the histories will be different. That should not be a problem. But it is a HUGE problem, as far too many make the mistake of confusing the other side's history for theirs.

    I clearly understand the history of the WTF (Kukki TKD) & have no problem crediting the many great Koreans who made it possible. I also fully comprehend that Gen. Choi was a pain in that development, who fought it tooth & nail, even trying to keep it from the Olympics. So I can appreciate the animosity many can have towards him. I also realize that since he was a leading & very vocal outspoken critic of the brutal SK military dictators, he suffered by an organized, concentrated effort to silence him, which included many attempts to destroy him & his organization.
    None of this however can or should prevent others, including detractors from crediting him with all the great work he did.
     
  18. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    This is good. As stated previously, all TKD comes from a common starting point. However the various styles or systems of TKD, naturally developed differently or they would be different styles of TKD. There is no need to argue history, if more understood this basic concept.
    So it is not an ITF version vs a WTF version. But rather a TKD history that begins together, but branches off in different directions. They should not be looked at as competing versions, with the other side lying, but rather the telling of how each side came to be!
    Why can't people see this simple fact? Why can't they respect the other side's reality of how they came to be seen as a different type, system or style of TKD?
    Part of the reason why is that it is the same name applied to a different entity, coupled with all of the political interference for reasons outside of TKD, as well as part of TKD.
     
  19. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    Can you please direct us to where we can read more about this?
    Thank you
     
  20. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    Yes the WTF & the SK TKD entities, along with people around the world, can hate Gen. Choi all they want, but that does not take away from great amount of good he accomplished & the great vehicle for self improvement he left for the ages. I can understand their animosity towards him. Boy he fought so hard to keep WTF TKD put of the Olympics. That alone is worth some of the venom thrown his way. Couple that with him going to NK, giving them a powerful cultural & political tool at a time when the 2 Koreas are still in a technical state of war, gives justification for so much more venom, no doubt about that. But again, it doesn't erase the good that he did.
    But here is where I will differ strongly:
    Gen. Choi had little to do with Kukki TKD. Yes he came up with the name of TKD & offered it as an umbrella term that was rejected by the others. Yes he applied it to a specific system he was developing in the military with the help of soldiers under his command. Yes he pushed the civilian Kukki leaders to switch from their umbrella term of TAE SOO DO, but he had to do with their path of development. In fact he fought them every step along the way.
    It would have been so much better if it was:
    International TAEKWON-DO Federation & World TAESOODO Federation

    Both sides would then see that they came from Okinawa karate, via Japan & took that start, making the Korean martial arts & martial sports into what they made them today, with little help at all, from the other side!
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2011
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