Taekwondo - Revolution

Discussion in 'Tae Kwon Do' started by Spookey, Apr 12, 2010.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    Me neither, but I do feel its only fair to put it in the right persepective and give both sides of the coin when referencing it. Gen Choi was shunned by SK (whom lets not forget he supported in a war against NK) and for the most part, wanted funding to produced his manuals, which AFAIA wasnt forthcoming in Canada or the US, so NK opened an opportunity there! That said, I think NK took too much of a slice of the pie in some regards, such as the Juche pattern. Still, history is history!

    Plus, like TKDStudent said, the same can be said of other orgs that have other 'not so nice' or 'secretive' countries as part of their set up and that means all arts, not just the ITF/WTF!

    Stuart
     
  2. mastercole

    mastercole Valued Member

  3. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

  4. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    Yes I think this is a fairly good comparison. Now take Steve Jobs & pretend or imagine he was from SK. He was this innovator, but he was also a leading, vocal, outspoken critic of the SK military dictators. These brutal dictators would have embarked on a great campaign to destroy him, as they did with any opposition to their terrible regime. They would have labeled him a communist sympathizer & worse. When he fled to Canada they would have pressured his family, even held them hostage like they did to Gen. Choi's family. If the imaginary Korean Steve Jobs would have introduced his product to NK, he would have been further labeled a traitor for that treasonous act.

    When we look at the NK situation now, yes some see it as problematic. However, later I am sure that history will look back & see that he was indeed a patriot, a courageous visionary. JMHO
     
  5. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    No sorry I don't agree. Now of course these great men did things also that were unprecedented. In some or many cases, even more so than Gen. Choi!
    However no one has done what Gen. Choi did in terms of developing, spreading & documenting his system as he did.
    For instance - a series of books, from the 1959 book, 1965 book, then what was called the bible of TKD, 500+ pages, which was unlike anything in 1972, followed by a 15 volume Encyclopedia in 1985, with condensed versions of it up to 1999 & 2004, along with his 3 volume autobiography & his Moral Guidebook, numerous training films, followed by the CD Rom & DVDs.
    Who else can claim to have traveled the world several times a year, teaching his system around the globe, where some 40-60+ nations can show up for a world championship where the winner is the one who performs closest to the standard he himself set & taught. His TKD led him to meeting many world leaders, earning many honorary degrees, impacting the lives of millions.

    Those things are truly unprecedented. This is not to be misunderstood, that no one else did these things. But no one else did ALL of these things AND to the EXTENT Gen. Choi did!

    I am of course open to Other examples that can be compared to the totality of what he accomplished.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2011
  6. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    Amazon has them. The Killing Art has a new paperback version, with a new edition coming out, as well as a Spanish version.
    TKD Times has his autobiography, but just the 1st 2 parts in English.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2011
  7. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    I think that this is true! I also know that with the Internet & the fact that SK is now a thriving democracy, more of the truth will come out & history will judge him as a true Korean patriot. One who did more than perhaps any Korean in teaching the world about Korea.
     
  8. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    Just to be a little more accurate here:
    Gen. Choi went to NK to spread his original or first system of TKD to be labeled as such. He went at a time when the ITF was on the verge of being destroyed by the SK military dictatorships. By going there he would gain financial support for his organization, as well as government backing in his push to get the original style of TKD official sport status with sport groups. Of course NK was aligned with the Soviet Bloc. He also had a now endless supply of Korean instructors for his KMA of SD he called TK-D! Gen. Choi spread his KMA anywhere he could, just as the WTF would eventually do, only they did it after he already went there! He did this without regard to politics, race, religion, national boundaries, etc. He did it to build a more peaceful world.

    However the manuals or the 15 Volume Encyclopedia of TKD was having difficulty being printed. The South Koreans living in the Americas he approached, would not print it, as the pressure of the KCIA was bearing down on them. One man, GM Jung Woo Jin published them. He funded the project, not NK. BK printed that 1st edition, dated 1983, but printed in 1985. They did not print any other editions, just the 1st. So NK did not finance that, GM Jung did & he, along with his family suffered at the hands of the KCIA.
    This was the reality of the SK dictatorships of the 1960s to the 1980s!
     
  9. mastercole

    mastercole Valued Member

    I really like these Wiki Monkey books, I got one for Christmas.

    From Wiki Monkey: Wiki Word of the Weak

    Cognitive Dissonance

    “The most famous case in the early study of cognitive dissonance was described by Leon Festinger and others in the book “When Prophecy Fails.” The authors infiltrated a group that was expecting the imminent end of the world on a certain date. When that prediction failed, the movement did not disintegrate, but grew instead. By sharing cult beliefs with others, they gained acceptance and thus reduced their own dissonance”
     
  10. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    Please do not mistake this at all. Kindly do not try to apply that label to me.
    If you take the time to actually read any of my posts, you will see that I am not a communist sympathizer, a fan of NK, one who advocates or defends any brutality, terrible human rights abuse at all. Not in the least! NEVER!
    There is simply no way that you could make an honest assessment of that towards anything written under this screen name.

    What you will see, if one applies personal integrity, is that there is simply no tolerance for NK, PLUS no tolerance for the former brutality & human rights abuses of the SK military dictators of the past (1960s - 1980s)!
    Your writings however make no mention of the abuses of the SK regimes & come off as implying that NK became evil when Gen. Choi introduced TKD there in 1980 or started to teach his TKD there in 1981.
    The 2 Koreas have been bitter enemies & rivals since their nation was divided by outside forces, namely the USSR & the USA, after a long, painful occupation by Japan ended when the Japanese lost WWII. There was terrible internal growing pains on both sides of the divide, as well as awful death & destruction across the border directed towards the other side by the other side.

    There have been many exchanges between the 2 Koreas by many, with those efforts being lauded. However when Gen. Choi engaged in these same types of exchanges he is depicted as a monster. That is unfortunate, as it shows partisanship of a level of nastiness that IMHO has no place in the MAs. This coupled with the fact that you seem to make no mention of the atrocities that took place in SK under brutal military dictators, shows or tends to display an agenda on the part of your writings. The death & destruction caused by an evil regime in NK, took place long before Gen. Choi went to NK & sadly they continue after he passed away. However his efforts will someday, IMHO be correctly recoded by history, not by petty detractors that no longer have the power & influence of a corrupt SK dictatorship to back them up.
    TKD was & is used by vote Koreas for political & propaganda purposes. It always has been! There certainly has been a lot of pained caused by this misuse by many, including Gen. Choi & Dr. Kim.
     
  11. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    While I know little of what you write above, I do respectfully suggest that you get some Korean history books to read as well. This may help your understanding of TKD's distorted history that has been made confusing by Korea's complex own development & political rivalries!

    One can simply not hope to understand fully TKD's history without grasping the politics of the Koreas & the context of the times that TKD came of age & how it spread around the world so rapidly!
     
  12. mastercole

    mastercole Valued Member

    Actually, I don't think you are a terrorist.

    Thanks for the recommendation. I did study Korean history, in Korea. Where did you study Korean history?
     
  13. Theforgotten

    Theforgotten Drifting Aimlessly

    The really sad part is that it is all the same art from the same country, just different orgs within the art. Instead of seeking unity and coming together, there are still those who wish to stir the pot and cause disharmony just to further personal and political agendas, even going so far as to slight others on a personal level. Since when did an organization trump the entire martial art? Why can't we just love both ITF and WTF, along with the independents, as fellow martial artists under the banner of TKD? I swear, it is like little children on an elementary school playground fighting over who has rights to the sandbox. There is enough room in the sandbox for all to play and be happy, so why slight the other? ITF or WTF, who cares? Just train and be happy while respecting the other. Revisionist history and giving proper credit where it is due is a Korean-wide problem, and much bigger than TKD. Given the situation on the peninsula for the last century or so, it is perfectly understandable why. When trying to find the most accurate history of something, it is best to take a less partisan approach in the name of truth, not to take sides and try to force one's own agenda down another's throat just to further the aims of an organization. Intellectual honesty is far more important than trying to cling to laughable legends and half-truths just because one's instructor says so or because the real history is too painful to accept. Honesty is how we truly move forward in life, regardless of country or culture. I don't think we are doing TKD any favors by constantly bickering over organizations and the like. I would hope that we are humble enough and mature enough to love (or at least respect) ALL of TKD in the name of unity, regardless of organizational differences. TKD is already a running joke within the martial arts community, let's not further contribute to that reputation by behaving like little children. There is far more that unites us than divides us.
     
  14. aaron_mag

    aaron_mag New Member Supporter

    Well said forgotten...

    But I'd also like to point out, as the topic moderator, that for the most part we get along here (and are not like little children). I rarely have to do anything. I just sit around twiddling my thumbs and reading posts (this is a good thing). And when we do have a thread that needs locking/whatever it is typically a troll coming from the outside who just wants to stir a pot and disappear.

    So everyone group hug! ;)
     
  15. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    Thank you for that. ;)
    My study of history is one of a continuing basis.

    Since you have studied Korean history, including in Korea, would you comment on:
    The atrocities of SK over the years
    Their use of TKD as a political tool
    Dr. Kim's involvement with the KCIA
    His arrest, conviction & prison sentence
    How this affects the telling of the history of TKD

    (Or are you more one sided or partisan with some agenda?)
     
  16. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    This is a very nice post, one worth repeating IMHO!
    I respectfully suggest, that through the story of history, ie what happened, when, where did it happen & who made it happen, will help us to come together. Understanding how Korean very dirty, even brutal politics impacted TKD's development & history, will help us to understand where we came from, how we got in the mess today, which can be a start to clean it up, working together.
    TBH the ones that gave the world TKD, did a great thing. But they were not saints & they worked within & against a brutal system. This led to a lot of factionalism & distortion of history, with an awful lot of very nasty mudslinging. We, the readers, we the members of the subsequent & future generations MUST KNOW what happened - so we can see a way to unity!

    It is a shame that we share more & are more polite with those of other MAs, than those in a different TKD group, style or system. SAD!
     
  17. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    Please do not mistake this at all. Kindly do not try to apply that label to me.
    If you take the time to actually read any of my posts, you will see that I am not a communist sympathizer, a fan of NK, one who advocates or defends any brutality, terrible human rights abuse at all. Not in the least! NEVER!
    There is simply no way that you could make an honest assessment of that towards anything written under this screen name.

    What you will see, if one applies personal integrity, is that there is simply no tolerance for NK, PLUS no tolerance for the former brutality & human rights abuses of the SK military dictators of the past (1960s - 1980s)!
    Your writings however make no mention of the abuses of the SK regimes & come off as implying that NK became evil when Gen. Choi introduced TKD there in 1980 or started to teach his TKD there in 1981.
    The 2 Koreas have been bitter enemies & rivals since their nation was divided by outside forces, namely the USSR & the USA, after a long, painful occupation by Japan ended when the Japanese lost WWII. There was terrible internal growing pains on both sides of the divide, as well as awful death & destruction across the border directed towards the other side by the other side.

    There have been many exchanges between the 2 Koreas by many, with those efforts being lauded. However when Gen. Choi engaged in these same types of exchanges he is depicted as a monster. That is unfortunate, as it shows partisanship of a level of nastiness that IMHO has no place in the MAs. This coupled with the fact that you seem to make no mention of the atrocities that took place in SK under brutal military dictators, shows or tends to display an agenda on the part of your writings. The death & destruction caused by an evil regime in NK, took place long before Gen. Choi went to NK & sadly they continue after he passed away. However his efforts will someday, IMHO be correctly recoded by history, not by petty detractors that no longer have the power & influence of a corrupt SK dictatorship to back them up.
    TKD was & is used by vote Koreas for political & propaganda purposes. It always has been! There certainly has been a lot of pained caused by this misuse by many, including Gen. Choi & Dr. Kim.
     
  18. Theforgotten

    Theforgotten Drifting Aimlessly

    I understand. I wasn't trying to label anyone on these boards as being childish, I was speaking in general about people from one org slagging off on people from another org because it happens enough to cause a noticeable riff within the TKD community. I mean, discussing the differences and the history can be fun and fruitful, but when it gets to the point that people are taking it personally and insulting each other and their resepective orgs and lineage, then that is when it becomes childish. We can point out our differences and have fun and productive discussions about them as long as we respect each other and accept that we have more in common than naught, and as long as we acknowledge that we are all united under the banner of TKD. TKD has enough detractors as it is, the members of the TKD community don't need to turn against each other, as well. That is pretty much what I was getting at :).
     
  19. Theforgotten

    Theforgotten Drifting Aimlessly

    Definitely! I think that it is very important to know the history of the style and to pass it down to future generations. One of my pet peeves is when people ignore clear facts and start labelling things as ITF version or WTF version as if to undermine the facts because they don't fit in with what a particular org presents as the history. If it happened within TKD's development and it is a part of TKD, then it is TKD history period, not just ITF version or WTF version. I think that history is the one place in TKD where we should have the least amount of partisanship because the goal should be to present the facts, not further the political aims of your organization or cater to the fantastical whims of your instructor. For example, stating that TKD doesn't come from Taekkyun. Stating this is not about insulting the WTF and/or propping up the ITF. It is about acknowledging that the Korean Taekkyun Research Institute has openly and vehemently denied any and every link to TKD and that Taekkyun's kicking method is very different from TKD's kicking method. It is amazing how some people will politicize that into an attack against an org instead of accepting that it sheds light on the history of TKD regardless of organzational affiliation. Instead of trying to be open and honest about such things, there are people out there who care more about furthering the aims of their particular org than trying to find the truth and trying to maintain the integrity of the art in general. The WTF can hate General Choi as much as they want to, but it will never change the fact that the general is a major part of their lineage and history as practitioners of the art, and if it wasn't for him then they probably wouldn't be practicing the art today, regardless of what org within the art they belong to. Likewise, the ITF can hate Olympic TKD and the Kukkiwon as much as they want to, but it will never change the fact that such things are a permanent and deeply valued part of the art that deserve to be honored just like any other part of the art whether it was built by the general's hand or not. I guess that I am just choosing to look at the bigger picture and see the art as one, regardless of org. I would hope that we could all get past our differences and focus on the art as a whole, not splinter and attack each other along organizational lines. TKD has much more to offer than vicious arguments about history and organizations.
     
  20. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    Al Cole Reveals His True Colours!

    http://www.amazon.com/Chang-Hon-Tae...tBy=bySubmissionDateDescending#R1D69A03DT6MCW

    So.. Al Cole posts a news report on here, with a made up title, trying to make people believe its the real title, for his own agenda...

    ... I call him out on the title, pointing out that its not part of the story..

    ... so Al Cole goes to Amazon, like a big baby and deliberatly writes a bad review of my book...

    .. sorry, but that is more than childish.

    And this is before all the retoric that Al Cole is claiming is brought to bear as well.. check the date.. its after the first response (18th November).

    Not only has Al Cole got a hidden agenda, but he obviously doesnt like people disagreeing with him... more so.. he is a liar.. that is obvious from the way he falsified the title of his post on page 5!

    You will notice I do not use the word Master...as he certainly has no traits of what a master should have... that of honesty, integrity, courtesy etc., more so, he is a childish idiot, who falls into his own post/description of Cognitive Dissonance!

    Boo hoo at you throwing your toys out your pram... it only shows the type of person you really are!

    Stuart
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2011
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page