Calling you on it Nah, seriously though, you couldn't put it down to just TKD, he studies too many arts to be considered a TKD person.
And that’s the problem, no one seems to go into MMA with just TKD as their striking art of choice and certainly not as their current striking art. This to me says that in a NHB full contact event it is very lacking in several areas in its stand up skills, people can say oh but its mixed martial arts etc but that’s not the point…… I don’t care if you mix grappling with TKD, TKD is still your main stand up style, but if the only people we can point to in MMA with any kind of back ground in TKD also have years of kick boxing or thai and that’s their current striking art of choice, then just how well rounded TKD is and how good it is in a full contact striking environment where anything is allowed does have to be questioned
Weeell... at a guess I'd say Lelo, he of the "20 second KO" debacle; last time I checked he was ranked as Professor in his group (Axe Capoeira), and the next cord after that is purple. For future reference, the gradation in capoeira is pure freaking anarchy - to use Axe as a further example, yellow cord is one of the highest grades there, whereas in my former and current group it is second or third lowest. So saying that so and so has such and such cord in capoeira really tells me nada.
And of course capoeira angola uses no cords at all! But, yeah, there are four different capoeira regional/contemporanea groups here in Houston and they each have a different cord system!
I would suggest it's just how the TKD gets trained. The two most prominent TKD rulesets, at least that I'm aware of, are ITF, which is semi-contact without leg kicks and clinch striking, and is broken up every time a point is scored, and WTF, which though full-contact allows no face punches, leg kicks, and clinch striking. Neither of those really comes close to what's allowed in MMA, though arts like (European) kickboxing, Muay Thai, and Sanda/San Shou do, in that they're full-contact, continuous, allow leg kicks, and include (often) some clinch fighting. As someone who came from a point-fighting karate background, I can tell you that I use a lot of the same techniques when I "kickbox". When I was in Muay Thai class, I learned a little actual Muay Thai, but when it came time to spar, I was going to use the snappy lead-leg round kick as opposed to the more powerful Thai-style switch kick. I'd use my side kick as a stop kick, just like I did in karate, and would occasionally throw out a backfist as a feint or distance-closer. But strategically, I didn't fight at all like I did in karate. Does that mean that I was suddenly doing "not-karate"? A little bit; I'd definitely added a good amount of Western boxing training, as well as bits of some other stuff, when I sparred, but the techniques I learned in karate were definitely still present. If you saw me spar, you'd probably think it was "just kickboxing" or what have you, but as a practitioner, I know the difference. I'm willing to bet if you threw gloves and shin guards on some TKD guys and told them to sparr continuous, full/heavy contact, it would end up looking more like kickboxing or Muay Thai than what you'd see in TKD class, even if they didn't incorporate any other martial arts. Changing the rules/objective changes how you fight.
QFT. As a slight correction, ITF-style sparring is usually continuous rather than point-stop. It's a non-question though really. Why aren't there more badminton players competing in tennis? Because they already train in a competitive sport and don't see any reason to change. If you're a Taekwondoin you have access to numerous national and international competitions, potentially up to and including competing at the Olympics. All without moving outside your chosen sport. Mitch
I don't think it's a non-question. MMA is not yet at the point where it's universally trained as an inclusive system. As such, we still have people coming from a wide variety of backgrounds, including TKD. If I had a background in TKD and was thinking about doing MMA, I'd want to know how it has faired, historically. If it doesn't do well, it's an indication that I'd need to start investing some time into something else before entering MMA, or forget about MMA entirely. One of the cool things about MMA is that it's as open a martial arts tournament as exists. You can enter without being part of some governing body or practicing a specific martial art. As such, I think it's still a great test-bed for martial arts in less-restrictive sportive environments. Those who are invested in a single martial art, as you pointed out, need not look to MMA for validation; those who are currious or not stlistically loyal, on the other hand, might see it that way.
If you want to do well in MMA you go and train in an MMA gym, just the same as if an MMA guy wanted to do well in a WTF tournament he'd go train in a WTF school. Same with boxers, judoka, kyokushinkai etc etc. Your point about the rules is the key. I suppose what I'm adding is simply that for those with a keen competitive instinct, arts like WTF TKD have a competition and training structure already in place to take athletes from club to Olympics. When the path is there to ultimately potentially train full time in a dedicated facility whilst being funded by your country's Olympic programme, there's little to interest you in the comparatively unstructured and underfunded world of MMA promotion. Mitch
Funny you mention "underfunded". I have no idea what the Olympic TKD picture looks like, but one of the reasons Dan Henderson moved on to MMA instead of continuing to go for Olympic glory is that he saw more in one payday in MMA than wrestling earned him in an entire year. I agree that one would be wise to train at an MMA gym, but with all due respect, I'm not sure you understand where the desire to learn "how well does X do in MMA" comes from. I think the desire is, "how do I translate what I do into this new rule set". For example, coming from my karate background, the biggest change I made was "chin down, hands up". Another change was linking the punching and kicking attacks together. I haven't given up something I invested over a decade in; I've just altered it to better suit this new use. I want to see how well karate "plays" when combined with boxing, TKD, Silat, Jun Fan, or whatever. And speaking personally, I never liked the ruleset we used for sparring anyway. I didn't get to use my knees and elbows in point sparring, didn't get to use leg kicks, etc. I have friends in different martial arts with similar feelings- that the current competitive format doesn't allow them to use the full range of their martial art. If you've never had that desire, I can understand how it would be difficult to see that point of view.
I'm not speaking for myself, I enjoyed my time in Enshin/knockdown and would still be there had circumstances been different for example. I just know from experience of TKD people around me that competition is frequent, available and progressive. People from the independent ITF-esque association I train in are in the UK Olympic programme for example. So I think that you're absolutely right, there are those like you and I who find the standard tournament ruleset too restrictive and address that in different ways, but for many who simply want a competitive outlet, there's no need to step outside their discipline, just as with boxers, judoka etc etc. One of the reasons many of those athletes don't compete in MMA is because they already have a structured outlet for their competitive instincts. Mitch
The thing with MMA is that to be the best and get to a top level you have to be unattached to every martial arts style and only focus on high percentage fundamentals from any style ,that will simply help you fight better. Its not so much that in MMA you are doing this style or that style its the training methods and fundamentals that you need to take and then they all need to be tacticaly combined to fit. If a person gets attached to a style and they try to force it in to MMA then they just wont be the best or get better. I think its something alot find difficult. Who would find it easy to accept alot of years of training are not as much use in a different setting? Not many, but its got to be done. You cant do Taekwondo kicks or strikes from the TKD stance you would spar or fight in or learn to do things in because now you would be vunerable to grapplers and unable to defend as well or use grappling yourself. You would be vunerable to low leg attacks like kicks or shoots and you would be vunerable up top for clinch defence or attack or hand fighting defence or attack. When you learn TKD these things are not taken into account so you would have to adjust things majorly and in doing so change the way you kick or do things. Martial arts like Boxing, Muay Thai, BJJ and wrestling also need to be tweaked and tacticaly combined for MMA. There are ways you stand and things you do in these arts that also make you vunerable to certain things or make it hard to do certain things. Its just that the fundamentals and training methods of these need to be less tweaked than TKD and some things just happen to fit better or cross alot easier. Thats my take on it as I have tried to use elements of TKD in MMA and its not that easy. Some elements come in handy like the distance you learn to fight at in TKD is similar to the distance for MMA. MT and boxing are a bit closer. Hammerfist and the direct smashing type techniques can come in handy during ground and pound and sneaky side kicks or back kicks can surprise. Another interesting thing is the fast sporting high kick can be handy if its tweaked abit because you dont need to to do a big kick with power and alot of movement and body if you can get your leg up fast onto someones chin or head and rotate it. The legs heavier than the head anyway.
Original and traditional ITF can be and is used in MMA, K1,and full contact. I don't see why is this even questionable (I hope under Taekwondo nobody doesn't mean WTF version of Taekwondo because of course it can't be used anywhere else except WTF competitions without major tweaking which then ain't wtf anymore). And please don't talk about ITF as semi contact anymore, because in any major competition full contact is allowed if tehnique is good.
