Taegeuk Philosophy

Discussion in 'Tae Kwon Do' started by Artikon, May 3, 2005.

  1. Artikon

    Artikon Advertise here ask me how

    First thing first

    ***warning this post is quite long***

    I'm writing this in response to slindsay's question regarding the philosophy revolving around the Taegeuk poomse. I thought this warranted its own thread since it really isn't on topic with the other thread. Everything that's written here is basically from my own research and what I've been taught by my master. I'm always interested in revising my own understanding so if anyone else has other information I'd be interested in hearing it. With that said, here we go.

    Taegeuk is essentially built around a harmonious balance of nature and mankind. (Womankind for KickChick ;) ). For the WTF taekwondoin we understand that the Taegeuk patterns all have the same basic formation, as follows:

    [​IMG]

    This is an overall representation of the makeup of Taegeuk. Each Taegeuk pattern can be shown physically through three whole or broken lines. Similar to the layout of the patterns. These series of lines are called trigrams. The following shows the corresonding trigram with each of the Taegeuk patterns.

    [​IMG]

    Each bar in the trigram symbols shows whether or not it represents "um" or "yong". This is more commonly referred to as yin and yang. A full bar represents yang, whereas a broken bar represents yin. If we look at Taegeuk 1 we can see that it is full yang, and Taegeuk 8 is pure yin. This of course is the harmony that Taegeuk is trying to maintain. When looking at the rest of the symbols, there is an opposite to each one. Examples: 1 and 8, 2 and 7, 3 and 6, 4 and 5.

    Each specific pattern is also representative of a heavenly or elemental force.
    Taegeuk 1 = Heaven
    Taegeuk 2 = Lake
    Taegeuk 3 = Fire
    Taegeuk 4 = Lightning
    Taegeuk 5 = Wind
    Taegeuk 6 = Ocean
    Taegeuk 7 = Mountain
    Taegeuk 8 = Earth
    Each one of these representation has characteristics which are apparent within the pattern. My favorite example is Taegeuk 3. Fire is often seen as very energetic and explosive. This is also the first pattern that has a double punch involved. Moving from a single kick and exploding into a double punch. Another example is from Taegeuk 1. Since everything is created from heaven (in terms of this philosophy, I don't want to get into religious debates) any mistakes that happen here progresses onto the next phase. Taegeuk 1 is the foundation of many things. If a students executes a technique improperly here and doesn't correct it, it can become apparent in other patterns, and of course in other things they may do. The trickle down effect, so to speak.

    In addition to this each pattern also has a corresponding position on an eight point compass.
    Taegeuk 1 = North point
    Taegeuk 2 = North West point
    Taegeuk 3 = West point
    Taegeuk 4 = South West point
    Taegeuk 5 = North East point
    Taegeuk 6 = East point
    Taegeuk 7 = South East point
    Taegeuk 8 = South point
    When you actually work this out, again we see the balance between the yin and the yang. 1 and 8 are at opposite points, and have opposite trigrams. 2 and 7 are at opposite points, and again have opposite trigrams. Etc . . .

    Finally not each pattern has a corresponding member of the family.
    Taegeuk 1 = Father
    Taegeuk 2 = Eldest son
    Taegeuk 3 = Second son
    Taegeuk 4 = Youngest son
    Taegeuk 5 = Youngest daughter
    Taegeuk 6 = Second daughter
    Taegeuk 7 = Eldest daughter
    Taegeuk 8 = Mother
    From this we can determine the importance of each pattern. Mother and Father of course are the most important members of the family. Followed by the second daughter and son. This reason being is that the eldest son is expected to go to war for his region or country, the eldest daughter is supposed to be married to another family, and the youngest children don't do much of anything. The second daughter and son on the other hand stay at home and take care of mother and father, thus being important to the family unit. The eldest and youngest children can be considered equal in importance.
    This leads us to seeing
    1 and 8 being the most important
    3 and 6 being second
    2,4,5, and 7 as being the least important.

    This idea can lead us into a whole new way of performing the Taegeuk patterns. If we think of the whole series of one gigantic poomse. We would lead off with the two most important, the two next important, followed by the least important. This gives a huge amount of combinations. For example you can do 1,8,6,3,5,7,2,4. Mix and match how you see fit. One of these days I'm actually going to figure out how many different combinations there are.

    One of the most interesting things however is how this correlates with the points of the compass. First you start with the North and South, and work into the East and West. Finally you work with the remaining patterns which are least important, and work along a comletely different axis of the first four. How I was taught, and how I still prefer is to think of the natural progression of Taegeuk in terms of 1,8,3,6,5,7,2,4. This works very nicely once you put it all together, and finally it works very nicely once you figure out how to do the pattern set according to the compass layout. If I find time I'll video tape and post a demonstration of the natural Taegeuk pattern. I think that this set is a good representation of the balance that Taegeuk tries to maintain. As you do the pattern set along the compass you find yourself always starting from the opposite position. In a sense this is creating your own balance.

    I'm interesting what people think about this particular topic. I find that in my province, there are very few schools that recognize the philosophy behind the Taegeuk. Do you actually learn this at your dojangs, in depth or even simply just on the surface level? Again if anyone else has any other information or has any questions I'd be more than happy to hear them.

    Phew, think I'm done. Only took me an hour and a bit to go through all my notes and get this all out. ;)
     
  2. JohnLewis

    JohnLewis Valued Member

    Wow! I'm impressed! Very good post. I think the best I've seen about Taegeuk so far.

    I have tried to do all the poomsae correlated but beginning from 1 to 8, I will try to do it in the sequence you say.

    I have a question: Do you know why all the Taegeuk poomsae have the
    same basic formation and not the trigram they represent?
    I mean that when you perform Taegeuk 1, you move through the same lines as all the others
    Taegeuk, and you don't move through the lines that Taegeuk 1 represents.
    Why is that?

    Regards,


    John Lewis.
     
  3. Artikon

    Artikon Advertise here ask me how

    Hmmm, John I'm not entirely sure I understand your question. All the Taegeuk poomse are supposed to have similar makeup to the pattern, which are supposed to correlate to the relative trigram. I'm not sure I understand how you don't move through the lines that Taegeuk 1 represents. Could you explain a little more in detail.

    Thanks.

    PS. Here's a question, with the set of 8 trigrams, how many hexagrams can you come up with? (This is more related to the I Ching and not to this thread, but I can't figure it out right now . . . stupid math.)
     
  4. JohnLewis

    JohnLewis Valued Member

    I explain. If you look at the trigrams you will see the black lines and between them you will see white lines. Why is it that all the poomsae moves through the same lines and not between the white lines of each trigram?

    I hope you understand it now.
     
  5. Artikon

    Artikon Advertise here ask me how

    Do you mean through the vertical axis? If by this I think the answer is only that you can't move through to the next horizontal line without moving through the vertical axis, so there must be some movement that way . . . otherwise all our poomse would look like pyungwon.

    If I'm understanding your question correctly, I really don't know if there is a philisophical answer to this, or even if I have found it yet.

    And you are keeping me busy too. It's 2 in the morning for jimminie cricket. :D
     
  6. JohnLewis

    JohnLewis Valued Member

    Another question. Is there any relation between the yin/yang lines and the moves in the poomsae? In Taegeuk 1, all are strong (yang) but in Taegeuk 2 the first 2 lines are weak (yin) does this mean that when we perform the moves corresponding to the yin lines in Taegeuk 2, we must perform them weaker than the yang lines?
     
  7. Andy Cap

    Andy Cap Valued Member

    Very cool Artikon. I have never seen Tae Gyuks broken down that way. I like it! Thnx
     
  8. stumblinthrulif

    stumblinthrulif New Member

    There are 40,320 unique combinations (8 factorial, designated by 8!, 1*2*3*4*5*6*7*8).

    Who's up for mapping, performing and videoing all of them? :p
     
  9. Artikon

    Artikon Advertise here ask me how

    John, I don't know if I would relate to yin and yang in terms of strength. Good quesetion though. The only theory I can come up with relating to this right now is that the broken or full lines represent a step or transitional stance.

    For example. In taegeuk 2 the first two horizontal movements involve a step into another stance. The final horizontal movement is simply a pivot. Looking at the trigrams there is always an equal number of steps or transitional movements as the broken and unbroken lines. Taegeuk 1 is all step movements, Taegeuk 8 is all transitional.

    Here is the one thing I'm not entirely sure about. Taegeuk 2,4,5,7 do not really add up to this theory. What I mean by this is that the entire trigram of each needs to be reversed in order to match up with the exact pattern. Again looking at Taegeuk 2 the broken line is at the top of the pattern; however the first horizontal movement is a walking stance to a forward stance. The last movement is simply a pivot. If you invert the trigram then it is proper. This is the same with all these four patterns.

    Now the interesting thing that I see as I'm typing this out, is that all 4 of these patterns are the least important in terms of the family representation, as well all four of these patterns are on the diagonal axis of the compass. They all share very similar properties. Any ideas?

    I don't think this is correct. There's a couple variables you need to consider.

    1 and 8 must be the first 2 patterns
    6 and 3 must be the performed next
    2,4,5,7 are the final ones.

    Is it possible to figure out the number of combinations with these variables?
     
  10. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    Great post and lots of good stuff in it.

    I am wondering though where you came up with the ideas on the relative importance of family? In Korean society, eldest son and father are the most important as they "carry the bloodline on". First son will marry and provide a daughter-in-law that will help take care of the mother and father as they age. The other sons are on standby as needed. The daughters will be sent to other families for gain. The mother is lower status because she comes from another family and comes into the this one, relagating her to a lower level.

    The order you have them listed in would actually be the Korean order from most to least important (so to speak) as it is now, in my opinion.
     
  11. stumblinthrulif

    stumblinthrulif New Member

    Ah, ok I see what you want now, the 40,320 figure is all eight poomsae in all orders. Let me give it some thought, I may be able to work out an algorithm for it.

    <edited to add>

    OK, think I have it.

    2!*2!*4! = 96 possible permutations. A little more managable, but still rather you than me!
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2005
  12. Capt Ann

    Capt Ann Valued Member

    They all have the same form as the lines they represent. In this case, yin (broken line) represents a defensive move, and yang (unbroken line) represents an offensive move. In Taeguk 1, all motions to the left or right are block, step forward to attack (punch or kick punch). In taeguk 8, all motions to the left and right involve block, step back or block, stay in place, which are predominantly defensive moves. All of the taeguk numbers follow this pattern. In T3, the first and third lines involve stepping forward to attack, while the middle line is a knife hand block, slide foot out (no step) punch. In T6, the second line involves stepping forward to attack, while the first and third lines involve blocking, kicking/step back to block again.

    This is in keeping with the Taeguk philosophy of balance and harmony. Yin and yang are suppposed to swirl and mingle effortlessly, without changing yin to yang or yang to yin. Good taekwondo requires a fluid mix of offense and defense.


    64, just as the number in the I Ching. This is simply 8 x 8.


    Methinks you are confusing combinations and permutations. He asked for permutations of length two.
     
  13. stumblinthrulif

    stumblinthrulif New Member

    You're right that I'm using permutations, but the problem was actually that I misread the requirements, I thought Artikon wanted all orders in which you could perform the 8 poomsae. The number he was looking for is 96, which is all the orders to perform them within the restriction of performing 1 and 8 first, then 6 and 3, then the other four. Permutations of length 2 would give all ordered combinations of 2 poomsae out of 8, and the number would be 8n2 = 8!/(8-2)! = 56.

    Though having said that, I think I still got the requirements wrong. Artikon, do you want to perform 1, 8, 6, 3 and then the last four in any order? In that case it would be only 4! = 24 permutations.

    Anyhoo, humble apologies for the somewhat unintentional thread hijack, this wasn't supposed to be a mathematics debate!
     
  14. Kwondo

    Kwondo 3rd Dan WTF Taekwondo

    I think it's important to add that (if it hasn't been done already- I may have missed it) after the 8 Taeguks, the trigrams change and each black belt poomse has it's own designated one. One of them is just a single straight line, and another looks like a cross. I'm not sure if these are still called trigrams, as they do not the three lines, but you guys can see what I mean. I have a picture, but I can't figure out how to get them on here, if anyone else has them please post them!
     
  15. Artikon

    Artikon Advertise here ask me how

    Okay to answer Thomas first.

    The idea of the family members importance is an idea cultivated through the teachings from my master, I think I've expanded onto it, at least for my own understanding. Despite the fact that we are dealing with a Korean martial art, it's important to remember that the origin of Taegeuk comes from the "I Ching", which is Chinese in origin. Historically I believe that the family structure was probably fairly similar for both these races; however I choose to view the family unit as a single microcosm that doesn't have outside interference.

    To this end this is my reasoning behind the second children holding the most importance. If the eldest son is expected to go to war and fight for his country, he is important in terms of protecting the family. Likewise the eldest daughter is important in terms of bringing in a dowry for the family; however since both are leaving the family unit to do this, their importance is not as great as those who are staying. The second children are then expected to take over the household in terms of its daily operations and keeping the heads of the household in good shape.

    Historically because women have been seen as second class family members this is not a true reflection of the actual family unit. I try to remember that Taegeuk is a balance. So for ever male part of Taegeuk, there is an equal female counter-part.

    When looking at this at face value I first thought that this was slightly flawed reasoning. When looking at Taegeuk 2 the top part of the trigram is broken. Meaning this would be a defensive movement; however the exact same technique is done in Taegeuk 1. The only difference is that instead of a walking stance:walking stance, there is a walking stance:forward stance. I take this as more of an offensive movement as you step more into the counter attack. This lead me to explore the idea I was working with last night trying to answer John Lewis question. The idea that 2,4,5,7 all need to be inverted to correctly reflect the trigram. Well I think I figured this out and this may make your reasoning correct, although I have to go through all the forms before I agree 100%.

    First thing first. I mentioned earlier that each Trigram is part of the point of the compass. Well for us visual people here's a representation of that.

    [​IMG]

    If we look at this image and put mankind in the middle, we can see how the balance is in effect for us. As well this also solves the problem of the inverted trigrams. For example we had the issue with Taegeuk 2, but if you put yourself in the middle of the compass and then look to the NW point, the first part of the trigram you see is the long bar. Now everything along the diagonal axis is in the right place.

    stumblinthrulif I think you are actually on to something. Number wise there are many important parts to the Taegeuk. I'm just playing around with some things right now so I'll try to post more later.
     
  16. Capt Ann

    Capt Ann Valued Member

    I stand by what I said. The top line in T2 is an inner wrist hand block (purely defensive) to each side. This is the broken line (yin, or eum in Korean).

    I think the confusion lies in defining the starting point in the trigram for each form. When starting each Taeguk form, you are standing in the middle of the bottom line, facing towards the upper lines. So, the walking stance:forward stance combination you mentioned actually occurs in the bottom line (yang; offense) of the trigram.

    Each of the 8 Taeguk forms reflects the balance of offense/defense depicted in each of the 8 corresponding trigrams. I am almost positive that the Taeguk forms were designed with exactly this reasoning in mind.
     
  17. angry

    angry Valued Member

    The WTF black belt forms are not in trigrams, although they are given aspects of the eight force aspects of the trigrams. They path the forms make are related to Chinese calligraphy. Keumgung is the character for mountain, etc....

    The I ching from which the trigram theory is taken is Chinese in origin and has many influences in the Asian martial arts. I would recommend all serious students to find a good translation and study for a few years.

    The palgwe patterns are an earlier attempt at making forms to match the trigrams, hence the name pal gwe or eight directions (very rough translation). These where latter replaced in preference to the newer taeguek poomse developed entirely by the WTF.

    The compass directions are a common representation of the base trigrams which are normally drawn circling the yin/yang symbol ( the two tadpoles) and are located due to the aspects list in the I ching. There four featured on the South Korean flag around the yin/yang. The others go between the one featured to form a circle. Sometimes you may see a fall set of 64 trigrams drawn around this again.

    The places of the family I have never come across before, in relation to Tkd or the poomse, but there are many characteristics for each trigram and have seen family places mentioned in other places in relation to trigrams and the I ching. (Most likely in the I ching too, but it is a few years since I studied it, will go back for another look!)

    Now...... It is all nice to get some insight into the though behind the construction of the poomse but as to relevance to their performs and applications, I am a bit wary of link a particular form with a particular set of characteristics. Many people each have their own take on the way they have learnt and understand the forms. It may sometimes that they have envisioned the opposite set of characteristics than is listed. I don't think it is right or wrong as long as it has a meaning and application that they can understand. With study they may change their views over time but they might not and that should be accepted.
     
  18. JohnLewis

    JohnLewis Valued Member

    Let's go a bit further, and I must say that I don't belive in this things. I have seen a table relating the Trigrams with different body parts:

    Taegeuk 1 = Heaven = Head, Lungs
    Taegeuk 2 = Lake = Mouth area
    Taegeuk 3 = Fire = Eyes & Heart
    Taegeuk 4 = Lightning = Throat
    Taegeuk 5 = Wind = Hips & Buttocks
    Taegeuk 6 = Ocean = Liver, Kidneys, Inner Ear
    Taegeuk 7 = Mountain = Hands, Spine, & Small Bones
    Taegeuk 8 = Earth = Abdomen & Reproductive Organs

    Let's say that we have headache, we see that T1 is related to the head. Teoretically if we practice a lot of times T1 we will obtain that our pain disappears :rolleyes: .

    So we have a great connection between Chinese medicine and Taegeuk poomsae :D .

    Regards,

    John Lewis.
     

Share This Page