Tae Kwon Do any Good on the Street

Discussion in 'Tae Kwon Do Resources' started by Jackie Li, Feb 12, 2004.

  1. Poop-Loops

    Poop-Loops Banned Banned

    Yeah, it kind of defeats the purpose of wearing gear if you don't go full contact. We do light sparring to practice technique, and then move onto regular sparring, that is, full contact.

    PL
     
  2. Kwan Jang

    Kwan Jang Valued Member

    -If Tosh and the other mods will tolerate it, I may be able to inject some reason based on experience here. I teach both TKD and MT and have trained in both systems for over twenty years and have trained with world champions in each. I use muay thai to get our new students to learn how to fire their strikes with full power as IMO, it has a faster method than TKD for getting this across. Towards which has more powerful kicks, it honestly depends which kicks.
    -In WTF competition when it started, it really was more of a power/KO-type sport. Most fighters were looking for the KO, and if they couldn't get that, they settled for winning on points. Back in the earlier days of the sport, the judges would really only score those points if your hand or foot strike slammed/moved their body or head("trembling shock"). As with many sports, TKD driffted and became more specialized and many competitors found that they could just slap the chest protector with a (usually weak, flicking) roundhouse kick and the noise would get the judges to score a point. Over time, this became what scored and won. The kicks of competitors in this sport became less effective and hand techniques rarely (if ever) scored anymore. The WTF people are now seeing that this has gone too far and are taking steps to change the rules and scoring system to "clean up the mess".
    -In muay thai, it has always remained a powershot/KO sport. Therefore you have not seen the popular watering down of many of the techniques. Most people will use the roundhouse kick to demonstrate the power difference between the kicking of MT vs. TKD. How I explain this to my students is that though they are both called roundhouse kicks due to their angles of attack, they are really seperate kicks. For example, I will use the lead leg round striking with the instep (using the ankle bone) and the MT roud to the lowline using the shin. (BTW-IMO the use of toes and even the lighter bones of the foot is a useless/foolish practice used by both point fighters and some Olympic TKD fighters to try to get extra reach or make more noise w/ their slap. I think it foolish because you will break your own bones if you make hard contact with it.) The lead leg round is a probing strike to create openings, set distance, and keep the opponent from getting set(keeping them off balance). Basically the kicking equivalent of a jab. The muay thai shin kick is a power shot similar to a hook punch. Comparing the punches, obviously the hook does a lot more damage and has more power when it lands, but the jab is at least as valuable in a fight.
    -It should be mentioned that some of TKD's kicks are mechanically stronger than the MT round. Both the side kick and the spinning back hit FAR harder if they are performed well. It's also been brought up that in MMA and K-1 events that the fighters tend to prefer the MT style kicks. It should be noted that in the lighter weight classes, espescially in K-1, you see a lot more of the TKD-type kicks. I was recently watching a tape of the welterweights and there were many who were effective and successful using primarily this type of kicking. Many heavyweights in boxing, kickboxing, NHB, and other combat sports make the mistake of relying more on power and their size, rather than becoming great technicians (before I get a backlash from a bunch of heavyweights, remember that I am a 250-255 lbs at about 7% bodyfat). Of course there have been heavyweights who were also good technicians. In boxing, that is what made Ali so great. It's a lot easier to get the MT style of kicking to a fairly high level of effectiveness and that is why you see more of it, not that MT's kicks are more effective overall.
    -Let me put it this way, if you can become a level-eight fighter, on a scale of ten, by using six units of effort and you can win by becoming at least a level-seven fighter; many will not make the extra effort to become a nine or ten. Espescially if it would require twelve to fourteen more units of work to make this happen. IMO developing into say, a Bill Wallace-level of kicker, would take, on scale, that much more work than becoming "good enough" at the simpler, faster to develop, muay thai-style kicks. This is why I emphasize MT kicks more with my beginners in the early phases of training. OTOH, when the black belts spar under either K-1 or MT rules (welcome to most of our Saturday mornng black belt sparring class), the ones who developed the greater range of kicking skills overall dominate the ones who focus more on just the MT kicks. Of course, it should be noted that they have all been doing both for a long time, so they are not taken by surprise by either type of kicking.
     
  3. davjohns

    davjohns New Member

    I think this last response was one I can well agree with. I teach TKD. There are parts of it I don't care for. The kicks are generally, however, more powerful than some that can be delivered faster.

    Early in the thread I noticed someone disparaged all spin kicks on the street. I can assure you that my spin side kick has a fair chance of ending a dispute if you don't watch for it.

    I do fault TKD for teaching little that can be used in the grappling range. That is why I also teach HKD. I find they compliment each other well.

    And while I am at it, is Tosh really a moderator? I've never seen a mod threaten to terminate a thread if he/she got bored with it. Maybe he was just playing around.

    Very respectfully,
    dwj
     
  4. Kwajman

    Kwajman Penguin in paradise....

    Kwan Jang, as one of the new mods, why did you think we'd edit your post? There was nothing wrong with it at all. Just because a post is critical of something we do doesn't mean we're going to ban it. Thats one reason we're here is to read opposing viewpoints, or viewpoints with a different angle. Keep posting!!
     
  5. Matt_Bernius

    Matt_Bernius a student and a teacher

    Kwan Jang,

    As always a brilliant post. Thank you for adding you view!

    - Matt
     
  6. blessed_samurai

    blessed_samurai Valued Member

    C'mon guys, how old is this question...is TKD street effective? Yes, it is and no, at times it isn't. It depends on who is teaching and how they teach and how you use it. I look at TKD in two catagories.... the first one being sport TKD and the second being combat TKD. The sport TKD seems to like to emphasize sparring, one steps, and kata. The latter tends to emphasize no set one steps (your instructor shows you the one step, but it's not done for static and the student changes it a bit to suit them), full contact sparring, balance breaking, not a huge emphasis on kata, and lots and lots of good ol breaking, maiming, and hyper extending activities. It's basically what happens when you strip it down to what is effective more on the street than in a ring with a few judges.

    Okay, first of all about the blocks. The arm only goes one direction...in a circle...whether you do an outside or an inside or down block, it does not matter, the in block circles down and becomes a down block, circles the opposite direction and becomes an outside block and so forth...it's all that good ol circular movement.

    As a TKD practioneer, you have to know the difference between what works in sparring and what works on the street, if you think the two are the same, then you'll be in for a shock on the street.

    I can only relate to you my experience with TKD. Punches were just as valuable as kicking (it is the way of the hand and foot...not just the foot). So, in sparring we could "head hunt". Now, we have all these handy kicks right? Well, just take the round house and make it low to the knees, snap kick to the groin instead of the chest.

    Every ma has to have their own identity and philosophy away from the instructors and the other students, you should not become just a walking repitition of your instructor. Instead of doing the hard blocks, do what I call "shoeing away at flies" When you shoe a fly away, you are basically slapping and swatting and your arm is loose...apply this philosophy to your blocking. Who said you had to be stiff and rigid?

    I just keep hearing the same old question about TKD being street effective and any art can be street effective is used properly. After all, TKD was originally a military art and not a sport art. You just have to tell your instructor what you want out of the art and if he cannot provide this for you,it's time to move on.

    Also, each kwon of TKD is a bit different. The Ji Du Kwan people can be a bit rougher than some of the others...same for the Han Moo Kwan.

    If you know dropping your hands won't work on the street...then don't do it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2004
  7. Helm

    Helm New Member

    Great post Kwan Jang, the points you laid out there always held lightly in my mind as suspicions. But its nice to hear someone from experience explain it :)
     
  8. STASH

    STASH New Member

    Is TKD effective on its own as self defence...NO

    And this is coming from someone who has done it for over a decade.
     
  9. tkd_princess78

    tkd_princess78 New Member

    Ok I hope TKD will really works when I need it to. My husband and i were play fighting. He was trying to get $20 out of my hand. I could he back kicked him in the nuts but I didnt really wanna hurt him but I did make one big mistake. He was behind me I had the $20 in my right hand he use pressure point but I have a high tolerance to pain I had natural child birth lol. I pulled my arm down to my thighs I was going to hold his arm between my thighs but he pull my arm between my legs so fast i slapped into the floor I was not hurt I could not move because I was laughin so hard I could not believe he did that to me.. lol Just thought I would share that with you have a great laugh!!! lol :D
     
  10. Guy Mendiola

    Guy Mendiola New Member

    This is a good opinion because Tae Kwon Do is effective on the street.
     
  11. enlwlffo

    enlwlffo New Member

    I dunno bout others, but i've found tkd invaluable on the streets
    i went to a school where i was the only korean in a population of bigots.
    when modified not only are the kicks awesome to use (especially if ur fast enough to get that push/front kick up to bout stomach level) but tkd trains ur body to take hits, helps wit endurance, speed, stamina, strength, and one thing i especially liked was how you know what parts of the body are especially sensitive to pain and how to easily get to them.
    tkd is also very helpful when you are getting attacked by multiple people.
     
  12. kickcatcher

    kickcatcher Banned Banned

    What, to the same extent as a Muay Thai or kickboxing? Does it train you to experience being punched in the face?

    How come?
     
  13. kickcatcher

    kickcatcher Banned Banned

     
  14. Tosh

    Tosh Renegade of Funk

    1) Yes I am.

    2) I put that warning to stop any childish "TKS sucks" vs "No it doesn't" type flame wars which regularly happen during the course of these type of discussions. I fail to see where you get the idea I would lock it because I was bored with it? I threatened to lock it if things got stupid - big difference.

    As it is, things have been pretty half decent hence the continuation, although I'm curious why you brought that one up? Bizzare :D
     
  15. enlwlffo

    enlwlffo New Member

    Lol i've done a little kickboxing too, and its just my personal opinion but i'd say tkd is better for kicking to the face. and spar full contact wit big fast people and get kicked in the face alot, and see if it doesn't train u to get hit. btw my sparring partner was 6'5", 330 pounds solid muscle waistline 40, and very, very quick. I'm 5'10" 190 pounds waistline 30. Try it.

    i would say because you can train to kick extremely quick at all ranges, and in a 360degree field of attack angle. taekwondo also strengthens wrists very effectively for punching, and the endless pushups you do give u quick and strong punches and the like.
     
  16. enlwlffo

    enlwlffo New Member

     
  17. Tosh

    Tosh Renegade of Funk

     
  18. kickcatcher

    kickcatcher Banned Banned

    Interesting viewpoint. All nice in theory. Sadly I see the real world through very different glasses. A couple odf questions:
    1. How do you train to do a backkick to the throat?
    2. Is the throat, a small moving target area, a realistic target for a spinning kick? -do you have the accuracy to apply it in a high pressure situation?
    3. Are you of the opinion that such high kicks are reliable enough for 'real' situations.
    4. On what basis is the notion that 'an experienced person' won't let you hget close enough to jab at their throat? Who is an experienced person?

    As for the idea of stop sidekick quicker than you rush in. If I was a betting man, I'd bet that you have at best 60% chance of stop sidekicking me. That's 40% when I'll get through. 40% means that sooner or later I will get through. But at any rate, if you did a pushing stop side kick, I reckon that I'd have about a 75% of grabbing your foot/trouser on the first kick. That would be you into groundfighting. :woo: :woo: :woo:
    But I'm not a betting man and I'm also not suggesting that I'm better than you or anything. :Angel: :)


    TOSH,
    Cool. Nice one.
     
  19. enlwlffo

    enlwlffo New Member

    1. lol sorry this one might not have been fair i especially liked the backkick and trained with it, same with hook kick. after awhile i found it faster than my roundhouse and i could hit a very small target area
    2. yes, yes
    3. sometimes. u just gotta go with the flow, low kicks, ones right above the groin below the navel is a very good target coz it'll kill your balance
    4. i have tried punchin to face and almost had my ribcage imploded, always keep moving to protect ur vitals, and dont move predictively

    depends on how fast you are
    at tournaments and real situations my quick leading-foot sidekick has been very successful at stopping basically any attacks
    also, most people cannot grab a sidekick that just slammed into their ribs (or hip, or anywhere painful and anywhere they would lose their balance) at very high velocity, then again i dunno how good you are and i don't mean to talk in a condescending manner please don't misinterpret
     
  20. kickcatcher

    kickcatcher Banned Banned

    I admire your confidence. But I think that you might want to check out some Geoff Thompson literature on reality Self defence. Spinning kicks don't count high in the list of effective techniques in 'real' situations. No offence.

    Re the stop kick. Yes, I like this move to. <EDITED>
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2004

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