Tactical Hapkido?

Discussion in 'Hapkido' started by folks, Nov 23, 2007.

  1. Instructor_Jon

    Instructor_Jon Effectiveness First

    Guys,

    I just want you to know that I was poor growing up. I got beat up. I would never have been able to learn martial arts if my teacher, as a part of his ministry, had not taught me for free. After 22 years I am still learning and teaching and my life is on track because this man helped me. He hasn't made a cent off me.

    If all this seems disingenuous or whatever so be it. All I know is I am happy and I believe in what we are doing.
     
  2. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    so tactical hapkido doesn't charge students for training?
     
  3. Instructor_Jon

    Instructor_Jon Effectiveness First

    It varies from school to school. For example I only charge my local students test fee's $20 a test. They can take the test as many times as they need to for that one time fee. My distance students pay membership because I have expenses to keep my site running. But it runs at cost. So it's very cheap $14.00 a month, at the most.

    My teacher on the other hand runs his local school completely free of charge. In fact he pays for things for his students out of his own pocket.

    The org has modest fees for school owners.
     
  4. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    So the philosophical question is - how did it become "Hapkido" from its roots as DRAJJ. Supposedly Choi Yong-sool Dojunim learned DRAJJ and then came back to Korea and began teaching martial arts. How did it go from DRAJJ to Hapkido? Was it from adding other stuff (like the fancy kicking and acrobatic breakfalls) or was it a superficial name change?

    Can you tell me the difference between "Hapkido' (as practiced by Choi Yong-sool Dojunim) and the DRAJJ that he learned?


    I will disagree with you here. All of his instructors have a direct connection to the founder and all earned rank in the art as it was taught by the founder (evidence by their rank). You know as well as I do that as Hapkido was growing, a great many people came into the art and earned rank and went on to further the art. All three of those instructors are looked at by the larger Hapkido community as respected "Hapkido" instructors.

    If they earned rank under the founder and then went on to teach others and issue rank (and earn rank from others), that doesn't negate their learning and teaching from being "Hapkido". I think there would be very few people in the world that would contend that GM Ji Han-jae doesn't teach Hapkido because he "only" earned a 3rd dan from Choi Dojunim.


    Sorry Kevin - my comments there were worded more in jest to lighten the mood - I thought you'd pick that up from the "cool" smilie.

    You know you are blunt and zealous in your posts and often come across as "inflammatory" yourself. (If you don't realize that, take a look at how people generally respond to your posts...). When you raise the tone in your rhetoric, don't be surprised if others respond in kind.

    Regardless,I figured you knew how you can come off and would take those comments more in jest. My apologies for the misunderstanding.
     
  5. iron_ox

    iron_ox Jungki Kwan Midwest

    I would say that we are not certain what material Choi Dojunim was taught, it could have come from a vast array of stuff at the disposal of his teacher, but I think it was different than mainline DRAJJ. My opinion from what I have seen.



    Direct connection yes, but junior in rank and knowledge. Maybe the topic for another thread...



    You and I have been hashing things out for quite a few years now, I know where you are coming from, and you know, as you stated that I can be blunt - and overly sarcastic as well, I lost a guy right here because of that.

    But I know you and I can have heated debate in a civilized way, so no worries about that...and smiles back! LOL
     
  6. Bayoupiper

    Bayoupiper Valued Member

    I remember when all the Johnny-come-lately instructors were getting black belts in three and four different styles, then cherry picking what they wanted from each to create a "new" martial art.
    But is it really a new martial art if all the techniques are, for lack of a better word, traditional?

    In this vein, is Tactical Hapkido a "new" Hapkido?
    Tactical Hapkido teaches a pared down and simplified self defense system of Hapkido techniques.
    Certainly some are modified from the "traditional" execution.
    Others are removed entirely.
    Does this make it less "authentic" for its exemptions?

    As far as lineage is concerned, there are many excellent instructors out there that no one has ever heard of.
    And while I understand the concerns expressed here, I can offer no explanation.
     
  7. Bayoupiper

    Bayoupiper Valued Member




    Who is your teacher?
     
  8. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    i'm just wondering if there's anything scholarly out there we can read that gets into the early history of hapkido. i was reading this website (i know, i know, it's the internet so it must be true :) ) that was basically saying the choi AND jhj created hapkido. is there anything scholarly out there that we can reference on the early history of hapkido?

    also, did choi ever claim that what jhj taught is not hapkido?
     
  9. Dwi Chugi

    Dwi Chugi Valued Member

    I don't believe I'd fall into the scholarly category but I have heard my grandmaster which was a direct student under Grandmaster Choi say that Choi and Choi only created Hapkido.

    There is a lot of talk that JHJ added a lot of techniques that is now considered Hapkido by a lot of his students which is about 90% of all Hapkidoist.

    My Grandmaster has never spoke ill of JHJ but he give homage to his direct master on the bringing Hapkido to the world. I'm sure Master Sogor may be able to touch on this. His Grandmaster was a long time student of GM Choi.
     
  10. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    who's your grandmaster?
     
  11. Dwi Chugi

    Dwi Chugi Valued Member

    Dr. Jung Hwan Park is my grandmaster.
     
  12. Xanth

    Xanth Valued Member

    Lineage is an inherently important thing, always has been. The son of a rich man is welcomed into privileged society, though he hasn't earned a dime. The son of an honest man is likely to be trusted etc....BUT we have to be careful, lineage can help validify a person as having the opportunity to learn from the best, but it does not guarantee they actually learned the lesson or are applying it properly. And what about the founders, were they so worried about lineage… they had to take what they knew and apply it to their personal style to develop their own arts. Are they less on the cosmic scale because of their lack of lineage? Just thoughts off the top of my head…
     
  13. iron_ox

    iron_ox Jungki Kwan Midwest


    Hello all,

    While I will couch this by saying that what I will say can be checked against other sources, I am of course biased as to my opinions on this subject.

    Choi Dojunim is the sole Founder of Hapkido. He had many students that broke away from him, most were 4th dan or lower, some added their own spin, some renamed what they did.

    In the case of Ji, he was a third dan when he left Choi Dojunim, and it is possible, but not confirmed that he received up to a sixth dan. According to more than one of Ji's High ranking students, he has said to them that he has not added any hand techniques, but added the kicking of Kim Moo Woong, and later claimed to have added weapons and philosophy from two individuals that have apparently only been seen by Ji.
    As to the veracity of claims made by Ji, the weapons he claims to have added were already in Choi Dojunim's curriculum, including variations Ji never learned, the kicks that were added are not combat effective in many cases, so clearly are not part of the original intent of the art. Ji has claimed for years that he was Choi Dojunim's senior student, when in fact while he was an early student, he was in no way a senior. There are many men in Daegu that trained at the same time as Ji and went on to rank far higher.
    I will say that while I have never met the man, and he is by all accounts a nice person, he has over and over misrepresented his position with Choi Dojunim. That can be interpreted by everyone how they feel about that independently. Ji was a mere child when Choi Dojunim was organizing his curriculum, and by the time the final elements were in place, Ji was not even a student at Choi Dojunim's dojang.

    Moving to the Seoul area certainly increased the exposure that Ji et al got - which they would not have gotten living in Daegu, but it is unfortunate that Ji could not have represented himself more "openly" in his relationship to Choi Dojunim.

    A far as a "scholarly" reference, check back with me April, 2015; its going to take that long to finish interviewing (because I will be doing it in Korea, in Korean...) and collating all the material for a work, that while I know it will contain a certain bias, I am just attempting to put the work of Choi Dojunim in the forefront.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2013
  14. iron_ox

    iron_ox Jungki Kwan Midwest

    This is a very true statement; but with lineage also must be added rank - those two elements together should give SOME indication as to the veracity of someone's claim. For example, while it may be a feather in the cap of someone to have trained with a Founder, if they leave at a low rank, then they are still that low rank years later, unless they trained somewhere else, it does not translate years later to being a master in that art.


    That is a good question. But if the story of the lineage turns out to be not just implausible, but fantasy, they should be looked at with some skepticism if things they say turn out to be out right falsehoods.
     
  15. Dwi Chugi

    Dwi Chugi Valued Member

    Are you going to put this in a book to publish? Sounds interesting.
     
  16. iron_ox

    iron_ox Jungki Kwan Midwest

    When I first started the project, publication was my ultimate goal. Now, with all the things that are being uncovered, I am very concerned that publication could damage some reputations - particularly of individuals outside Korea, and a few inside Korea...but the research continues.
     
  17. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    There's a lot out there that is not "so good"

    Dr. Kimm He-young's Hapkido History is fairly well done - it keeps a very "positive" outlook on everyone mentioned. Initially the rumor was that he was going to wait until after most of the movers and shakers had passed before publishing it, but he relented and it is out there. Well worth reading and probably the best that is out there commercially.
    His books are beautifully bound, well illustrated, and nicely written. They are also pricey, but worth it (http://hanmudo.com/merchandise)


    Are you translating the Korean yourself or is a third party doing it?

    One thing I'd like to see are clear references and possibly even the key points of the (Korean) texts of the interviews referenced in the Appendix.
     
  18. CriticalDog

    CriticalDog Valued Member

    I'm pondering checking one of these places out...

    FTR, I'm doing so more for the fitness aspect, and for fun. I have 5 years of Kuk Sool training, and am on year 3 of once a week TKD.

    The place close to me is cheap, which is appealing. The only other Hapkido place is a 45 minute drive, and I believe is charging about $150 a month, and is affiliated with Kovar's management which always makes me nervous....

    I'm only concerned about how deep the preaching goes as the website seems to be very very into the whole "Warrior for God" thing.

    Anybody have any insight into that?
     
  19. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    I cannot think of anything less likely to make me train at a place than someone shoving irrelevant religious beliefs upon me - avoid is my advice
     
  20. Inquisitor Gen.

    Inquisitor Gen. New Member

    ATTENTION: Instructor_Jon-

    ["It's an old thread and I dont' want to stir anything up. But....

    I met GM Rodemaker and Master Ziots a couple of years ago and I practiced with them. I thought they were both very professional and experienced.

    Just my 2 cents worth."]

    Your 2 cents really isn't even worth 2 cents at all....
    I've done a considerable amount of research on Barry Rodemaker and found his credentials are worth squat.

    Based on testimony from John Pellegrini on the phone. This also includes testimony from Master Rudy Timmerman and Master Kevin M. Janisse of the NKMAA.

    Basically, Pellegrini said that Rodemaker was with them for a period of time and then went off on his own to create a Hapkido organization. He didn't say much else...
    However, Rodemaker won't give any credit to Pellegrini at all for his so called Hapkido training.

    Instead, Rodemaker claims and credits his training from Master Rudy Timmerman. This seems very odd considering Rodemaker has no certifications or other credentials to prove this. Other than what? 3 seminars? Rodemaker claims to have trained in Kuk Sool Won with Master Timmerman, which looks like nothing of what he is doing now.

    Anyway, take a look what the NKMAA had to say.
    According to Master Kevin M. Janisse of the NKMAA, Barry Rodemaker had very little knowledge or ability in Hapkido and only attended about 3 seminars, which is about all of the info Barry got from the NKMAA. Master Janisse also said that Barry could not even hold his own weight against Master Janisse's black belts. Master Janisse said they relieved Barry from the NKMAA, because Barry was giving out rank without the proper credentials.

    Lastly, which is what anyone else will find on their own about Rodemaker's current so called credentials, is bogus as well.
    It seems to me, that Barry Rodemaker is more like Combat Hapkido than anything else. However, Barry claims most of his training came from Grand Master Rudy W. Timmerman, which obviously isn't true. The World Korean Martial Arts Union headed by Grandmaster Chang H. Park seems to be very fictious and something that Barry or Joe Parrish made up. Chang H. Park must be a fictitious character, because no info or contact info can be found on him or the World Korean Martial Arts Union. There is no validity or proof that the World Korean Martial Arts Union or Grandmaster Chang H. Park exists...
     

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