Systema

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by warriorofanart, Feb 28, 2010.

  1. RobP

    RobP Valued Member

    The method of training is to work from principle - as a simple analogy the old saying of giving a man a fish or teaching him to fish springs to mind. Alongside that people are encouraged to be spontaneous and adaptable. The training is based around exploring possibilites in different situations - which may well be different for different people. It is also context based. Vlad will sometimes show the general principles of how different things can be used - it isn't a scenario recreation or combat simulation. Once people have a grasp of those principles they can feed them into the regular training / pressure testing.

    When it comes to probability it's all down to context. In the majority of cases doing X may give you the highest probablity of success. In other cases it might not - or you may not have the option to do X. This is a danger of the solely technique-based approach, where "one size fits all".

    I have mentioned before one of our guys was held up by a robber with a knife. He kicked it out of the robbers hand. That's not something I'd consider a high probability technique and have never taught it as such - but it was obviously just right for that particular instance. Of course you need the skill of assessing situations quickly and making the right decision. That only comes with time, training and experience.

    So sometimes it's worth exploring "improbable" things. Not as "first response" techniques but in order to encourage creativity and not to give up. What do you do when your best technique fails? Try it again, give up or try something else?

    I thought I had too - see previous post re empty force "masters" etc. I found the Russian's different
     
  2. RobP

    RobP Valued Member

    Yes he does. But also these are not "self defence technique" DVDs in the conventional "he does A you do B" sense. I'd say they are targetted at existing Systema practitioners rather than being say, a "street combatives" type DVD


    I'm not sure what the inference here is?
     
  3. RobP

    RobP Valued Member

    All the main Russian instructors have considerable opertaional experience. ditto for some the US and UK guys

    Of course it is, if those are the options

    Where you present at the seminar? I was and understand the context of what was being presented

    Do you think I am gullible and hyper suggestible? Do you think my students are?


    So have I - generally in the IMA world, though I'm sure in other styles too
    They certainly are - and as such are always open to mis-interpretation, mis-use and mis-representation. That is why it is vital to have some form of questioning mechanism built into the training and that it should also be based on the abilities and development of the individual above the desires or ego of the instructor
     
  4. RobP

    RobP Valued Member

    Thanks for the kind words Cloudz, good luck in your training hope we bump into each again some day!
     
  5. Paul Genge

    Paul Genge Banned Banned

    Dudelove,

    In my opinion there is issues with the way the majority of systema schools train, but I make that comment based on experience. Stop trying to wage a personal crusade by sniping from the side lines and get ass in training. As somone famous once said, "Talk is cheap!"

    I think you will be very surprised by a trip to Rob's, but think you don't have the cojones to show. It is very easy to talk cheap from an arm chair, but difference face to face.
     
  6. RobP

    RobP Valued Member

    I'm not sure that's it's a question of "cojones" or any so-called "challenge", for me it's a question of is there a genuine interest or is it something else?
     
  7. Paul Genge

    Paul Genge Banned Banned

    It is easy for him to shoot his mouth off, but he has talked his way in to a corner. Either he shows up or shuts up!
     
  8. RobP

    RobP Valued Member

    It's the internet though Paul - there's no onus on anyone to back up claims, answer questions or anything really, so you take it for what it is.

    Steve Morris has an interesting post on his latest blog concerning recent attacks on him on a forum
    http://stevemorris.livejournal.com/40122.html

    In it he links to an interesting page I'd not seen before, almost a trollers charter lol - Thirty - Eight Ways to Win an Argument from Schopenhauer's "The Art of Controversy"

    http://www.searchlores.org/schopeng.htm
     
  9. Dudelove

    Dudelove Valued Member

    Sorry for the late reply guys... personal issues and faulty internet connection for the past week. Anyway, I'll keep this short and sweet...

    First I admit and apologize for the times when I have been unnecessarily hostile.

    Rob,

    I consider you and your students to be gullible if you believe that Ryabko and Vlad in the clips I've shown are psychically manipulating their students when they perform 'strikes that cheer you up' and 'wrapping thoughts around the hand and using it to pull a resisting person down'. If you guys think it's to do with suggestion/psychological manipulation then no I don't think your gullible.

    I was referring to the dialogue between yourself and Kiakiller on Bullshido., if I'm honest I think you were trying to intimidate him into not mocking systema, or was trying to call his bluff. In this thread you even joked how he didn't turn up.

    Based on the above and my own personal experience with teachers who've displayed the online character you've shown, I suspect that subtle intimidation 'games' will be the atmosphere at your class for myself. And besides I'm not travelling 5hrs to attend an hour and a half (or so) class (Hertfordshire right?).

    Like I've stated repeatedly before, I will turn up at an MAP or Bullshido meet Rob, I've a friend who I haven't seen for a while and would like to spar with some MAists, and the trip should be for him as much as it is for me.

    I also don't know why your offering me to meet up, seeing as you've openly stated that the things I've criticized systema for are things that you don't even practice? My conclusion is that your looking to intimidate me into not criticizing online, or trying to call my bluff.

    ######

    Mr Genge,

    You've made the point that your conclusions are based on experience and not speculation.

    You have to admit that it's interesting that the conclusions you've drawn from experience are the same that I've drawn from speculation...

    You stated that because the 'strikes that cheer you up' type wackiness is one of the reasons why you won't travel to train with Ryabko, I stated the same thing before you did.

    You stated that the 'systema punch' was only useful in a self defence/pre-emptive strike context and not a combat sport context, I stated the same thing before you did.

    You stated that there are issues with the way the majority of systema schools, many many detractors online (based on both experience and speculation) have stated that.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2010
  10. Dudelove

    Dudelove Valued Member

    Why do I have to show up or shut up?

    Are you trying to intimidate me into not criticizing online? Even if I don't show up (I'll do my best if you give me adequate notice) I'm free to write what I like as long as the mods are happy.
     
  11. Paul Genge

    Paul Genge Banned Banned

    It is oh so easy to make comments from the side lines. Try and get a little credibility for your comments. Rob teaches seminars. Turn up to one and see what goes on. At least that way you will get credibility and experience, both of which you lack.
     
  12. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    To be honest a seminar would give him some experience of systema in that setting. However he seems to feel there is some negativity on the part of Rob Poyton and you Paul so maybe you can understand his hesitation at going to an event which would be "home turf" for both of you.

    A MAP or Bullshido meets sounds much better to be honest and whatever "test" he wishes to perform will not detract from the students learning like it would at a seminar.

    Face it guys Systema has a lot of problems. Whether those come from bad marketing or bad training is debatable.

    As for credibility/experience and making comments form sidelines well I believe I've done the same.

    I'm happy to PM you my former teacher's name and how long I trained with him. Both of you know him.
     
  13. Paul Genge

    Paul Genge Banned Banned

    Your right some peoples expression of systema has issues, but to make comment without experience has no credibility. I certainly don't see the point in trying to explain away some of the crazier things that has gone on. If you talk to some of the guys in the states they know that I am very much into testing and development based on it. That does not go down well with some, but there are others who were considered senior instructors are also developing their own ideas based on the various schools of systema, but with testing.
     
  14. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    hey, I just read this posted on another board. Thought it was worth posting here as it relates to what Paul just stated..

    http://montrealsystema.blogspot.com/

     
  15. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Dudelove,

    I think antagonism brings about a certain result and attitude. No one is entitled to play the saint here.

    What result, well I can understand the position well enough that if you are fielding criticism and if it is aimed your way, it's natural to want people to train with you to get a truer picture. Sometimes we treat those on the net, who we never trained with or met as the stereotype we perceive and the target that we are "fighting" with on the net...

    When really all this intimidation concerns is really just poor perception and communication which has a culminating effect.

    The best way I've found is to try and chill a bit more, and get out and train with as many different folks as convenience allows you. Just kinda like what I said before. I note that in real life, most everyone gets along, has fun training and some of us much nicer, than how we can portray on the nets (it's a bitch). regards

    Don't hate the players, hate the game!
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2010
  16. Dudelove

    Dudelove Valued Member

    Shocked to read that about Kevin, though it probably explains why he was the one systema guy who's seminar I would have gone out of my way to attend if he came to the UK. I liked his articles explananing the reasons behind 'softwork' training, video clips and approach (Dude even had matt thornton teach a seminar at his school).
     
  17. Paul Genge

    Paul Genge Banned Banned

    He is not the only one going his own way. Alex Kostic used to teach at Vlad's school
    in toronto, but now has his own method based on his research of Russian martial arts, mma, krav maga and his own unique ideas. I am sure others will follow suit. Even one of ryabko's leading instructors in Russia is going it alone.
     
  18. Dudelove

    Dudelove Valued Member

    Paul you may not like me but I'd be interested in your comments on this...

    Do you believe that the current training methodology that is being promoted by Systema HQ probably won't produce skilled practitoners like Kevin seems to?

    What are the 'basics' that Kevin is alluding to?

    Has the training method undergone deep changes over the past decade? If so in what respect, and what are the positives and negatives.

    I don't like the tone (or percieved intention) behind your last few posts to me, but I respect the fact that you are into pressure testing systema and don't take things on 'faith' simply because Vlad and Ryabko are (reputedly) exceptionally skilled.
     
  19. Paul Genge

    Paul Genge Banned Banned

    Things have changed in the last 14 years. Some things for the better and others not. The style of rma definately has moved away from what is commonly known as buza towards ryabko's take on things. Some of what he has added to the mix is incredible yet other things in my opinion are not. As for can hq produce skilled practitioners? I believe it can. Vlad is an incredible martial artist and worth anyone learning from. Again this is a comment basedon 1st hand knowledge.
     
  20. Paul Genge

    Paul Genge Banned Banned

    I believe basics refers to kadochnikov biomechanical material which was very much part of the way things were shown in the early days, but you would be best asking Kev as it is his article.
     

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