Systema Good for real life or not?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Mider1985, Oct 4, 2009.

  1. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    David, got a link to the thread you refer to?
  2. David

    David Mostly AFK, these days

  3. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    No worries man, thanks for that! :)

    Will have a read tonight!
  4. RobP

    RobP Valued Member

    I don't think any systema people, at least the ones I know, outside of the military envrionment are under any illusions about military training vs civilian training. Of course the military are being trained for a specific role and how they train reflects that. My guys train for a more general role and so our training reflects that.

    As far as fitness / strength etc training go we can approach the military guys (depending on individual work levels!) - but learning operational procedures, firearms, etc then it isn't relevant for our guys. We may take some aspects of those things in order to provide a different angle or challenge in training, but never under the impression that we are weekend commandos.

    In fact having seen the Vityaz selection process in Moscow a few years back I have no desire to go there, especially at my age! So I wouldn't say watered down, I'd say "fit for purpose"

    The "spec ops" selling is not restricted to systema though, Krav does the same and it seem almost every RBSD expert is an ex-Seal or similar.

    As for not being effective for quick self defence - that's not been my experience in training people up. Our guys with no previous experience are developing very nicely. Here's a clip form a recent sparring session - some basic work to get the guys under pressure

    [ame=""]YouTube - SYSTEMA WORKSHOPS - SPARRING[/ame]


    Last edited: Oct 20, 2009
  5. Krav Maga Brist

    Krav Maga Brist Valued Member

    Great Post Rob

    Great post. I must apologise "watered down" was a poor turn of phrase. Fit for purpose is a far better description.

    I teach Krav Maga and like systema I guess we teach civilians what was originally a military system. I have had the opportunity of doing military and law enforcement level training. 90% was irrelevant to civilians and it was so heavily biased to using/retaining firearms most had little practical application to normal civilianns.

    Interestingly - civilian krav maga is often at a higher standard than military as students train for a lot longer on average and all the civilian stuff is relevent for a fist fight where much of the military stuff is not.

    The video was really interesting (great vid by the way) - although technically systema is very different to krav (our combatives are closely linked to boxing and thai boxing) the training drills and scenarios are very, very simmilar.

    I have never seen any of the real selection procedures you mention but wholly agree that I would have no aspirations there at all at my age LOL!

    Thanks for the great post and again my apologies for clumsy phrasing.
  6. RobP

    RobP Valued Member

    Hi Paul

    Thanks for you reply, much appreciated and none taken I know how things can come across on forums! I'm sure that a few tehcnical differences aside we have far more in common than not - and certainly have the same goals of helping people acheive their aims.

    Interesting comment about civilan vs military. I find people often expect a military or other professional to be highly trained in hand-to-hand. It's often not the case - I know what the police training is from a family member and it's very basic

    I've not seen much of krav - outside of one...aherm...instructor - but an ex-spets pal of mine trained with some Israeli guys who he highly recommended

    I'm also guessing that krav and systema share the same problems in terms of "instant instructors" or the "teacher" who buys a DVD and a pair of camos and of he/she goes....

    All the best

  7. Krav Maga Brist

    Krav Maga Brist Valued Member

    Civilian V Military

    I recently did the Krav Maga Law Enforcement instructors course. It was quite an eye opener compared to the training given to UK police of which I am fairly familiar. But the biggest surprise was that a lot if you took out the firearms and restraint on the whole training was at a lower standard than civilian training. By this I mean the assumptions of technical competence.

    It was interesting though - and bugger me those handcuffs hurt ;-)

    Re Instructors - do you get that too ? So how does it work - is it just people claiming to teach it or do you have people selling a weekend systema course or simmilar ?Have to be honest I hate all the military wannabe stuff.

    It became a real problem for us in krav. A guy successfully marketed a 3 day "Instructor" course. Turns out not only was he Not a Krav Maga instructor - he was not in any special forces (either) his main selling point. However the truth eventually came out and though he is still selling his courses the bubble has burst really.

    So how do you guys train instructors ? What does it take to be a systema instructor/teacher? Do you have a formal route or is it done from within your club structure?

    Do you guys have a process or simmilar so people know its a fully trained Systema instructor rather than a guy who watched a dvd?

    Really interested to hear how others do it.
  8. Krav Maga Brist

    Krav Maga Brist Valued Member

    The "spec ops" selling is not restricted to systema though, Krav does the same and it seem almost every RBSD expert is an ex-Seal or similar.

    Yes totally agree. Really big thing in the U.S I notice. They have a thing called the false valor act. If you make big claims you can get caught and punished there. Here i dont think its the same - anything can claim anything.

    In fact.....

    Paul Grey
    SAS Origami Expert - 29th Dan :evil:
  9. RobP

    RobP Valued Member

    Hi Paul

    Well Bob Spour was recently spectacularly outed as having a completely fabricated SAS background and I think that has maybe prompted some closer investigations of other claims.

    Then again it's not just military - there are plenty of people claiming hundreds of "street fights" from their days as a bouncer. I found out recently that most of one such person's output is actually ghost-written......

    It's a sign of the times, the dark side of marketing lol, I've known people who adopt whole new personas in order to sell their wares.

    As far as instructors go - I can only speak for the Vasiliev / Ryabko schools but bascially the only way tobe an Instructor is to get a certificate is from one of those two gentelmen. That involves training with them of course, there's no "distance learning" . Compared to other places I've trained it's very informal and on an individual basis. There's also nothing in terms of a hieracrchical structure or the old pyramid scheme (which in itself is a reflection of some of the principles of the style)

    There's nothign to stop anyone setting up a training group, in fact it's encouraged, but that's not the same as being an "instructor".

    As far as my club goes - at one time I ran a training programme to get people out and teaching and had a number of groups under my banner but for a number of reasons I've just gone back to my own group. I have a couple of lads who have recently started their own training groups, but only when I was sure they had enough experience (the teaching itself is good experience too though!)

    So it's a very informal set up, but registered instructors are listed on Vladimir's site

    Outside of our group - there are a few different schools coming out of Russia now. some of them look authentic and sound, others....well let's say exotic and unethical. Of course everyone gets tarred with the same brush!

    Handcuffs - you should try the pink fluffy ones they are much easier on the wrists :)

  10. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    Last edited: Oct 21, 2009
  11. RobP

    RobP Valued Member

    Hi Paul

    One other question - how do you find getting insurance cover? I've found so many policies have restrictions that make the training almost useless...


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