Sydney IMA : Ma Chuan Xu (BGZ) Lessons

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by Kat, Jan 20, 2004.

  1. nzric

    nzric on lookout for bad guys

    Ok folks - here's the deal:

    I went to the five-hour intensive training session yesterday with Master Ma, and the bottom line is I loved it. $180 is a bit steep for even a five-hour session, but it was made up by the fact that master Ma is the real deal, and since the class was small we got a lot of one-on-one with him and good supervision for the basics. Also, it was great to be able to ask him any questions and get answers about IMA from someone who has lived and breathed it for most of his 71 years.

    First, we all sat down and Master Ma gave us a summary of bagua. Kingsley Fong was very helpful the whole time and proved essential in translating everything from Chinese to English. It's interesting to note that Master Ma spoke just as strongly about using bagua principles in real life as in martial arts.

    Then we began walking the circle, holding basic downward (pounding) palms. He was strict about holding the posture just right and I could feel the strong tendon stretch all the way from my shoulders to my hands. This took hours of walking and after a few more q&a sessions, we broke for lunch.

    Once we got back, we waited for Ma to arrive. When he did he was laughing - a chinese reporter wanted to interview him for the Sydney newspaper but didn't believe in chi energy and demanded Master Ma give a demonstration. Ma proceeded to give him a couple of light nerve strikes - instant paralysis which was temporary but put the message across. He was a bit more cheerful and everyone in the class got more one-on-one, as well as comments on how much we were improving.

    Then he began to talk about chin na. From the start it was obvious his influences come from real-life practice, as he has trained security bureaus in Beijing (and has a large network of schools in Japan). He strongly emphasised the qigong aspects, at least 2 hours of circle walking a day to build jing, and he showed the strength in his hands/body, but I don't think he had a very high opinion of iron body training (and he was very anti weights training). Azrael asked him how Master Ma developed his very strong hands and fingers, and the answer was a lot of standing/walking qigong and training in the palms/changes (note, no comments about bags of sand/cement walls).

    We practiced one of the basic chin na's, a wrist lock and arm break/control. He showed how you should be able to put it on with three fingers only (first and second fingers, and thumb, all on pressure points), and how important it was to train the chi to enter the fingers to get power. We all experienced how quickly he could snap on the lock, and found out the hard way what could happen if you tried to use force to resist (he would give a quick change of force to direct it back towards you - leaving us on the ground in the practice situation). Kudos to Azrael who was more than happy to become the unfortunate guinea pig again and again. I found it interesting that he always used the initial wrist lock to 'coil' up the opponent's other joints - elbow, shoulder then their body/balance - thus the precise direction of continuing the lock (and also how he would keep the opponent moving so they were off-balance).

    Master Ma is an old-fashioned teacher - he leads by demonstration and has no qualms about showing the applications well enough that you can really feel their effects. Also, the best way of getting him to demonstrate more was to prove you were "working hard" - hence the strenuous circle walking.

    It doesn't sound like much but as I said earlier, it was an amazing opportunity to ask questions I have been pondering on for years, and get direct, intelligent answers about IMA.

    Master Ma believes all the three core IMA's are a system that have to be trained together. He is, of course, a bagua teacher, but he is also strongly influenced by hsing-i. He also didn't seem to have any pretensions about which moves "belong" to which art - it is a system of movement and all of it comes from the root - qigong training and strengthening.

    It was well worth the effort - Azrael is going for the rest of the week so I'm sure he will have a lot more to say about it all, but personally, I was impressed.

    Kingsley wants to set up a regular group of like-minded bagua fans, meeting probably on Sunday mornings (note, Master Ma is holding another session on this Sunday - $100, contact Kingsley for more info). The object would be to set up a loose network of people to train/spar/learn/try new things, and have enough people to justify Master Ma and/or other highly regarded teachers to come over from once in a while to teach.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2004
  2. Syd

    Syd 1/2 Dan in Origami

    Sounds great Rich, glad you enjoyed it. ;)
     
  3. Shade

    Shade New Member

    Yes it sounds excellent :)

    It will be interesting to hear back from Azrael as you say, and it will also be interesting to hear about these future sessions with Kingsley Fong too.

    I am under the impression that in a couple of years or so (when I have been doing this for longer) I need to move the family down under.....you guys get not only the best weather but fantastic exposure to all these great teachers. :D
     
  4. Kat

    Kat Valued Member

    Nzric
    Excellent, I am glad you gained alot and experienced alot.I think you can acknowledge the difference (no offence intended) between BGZ (JRJ) lineage as taught by Keith and that you where exposed to by Ma.
    I am hoping that Kingsley will allow a regular session of BGZ practitioners of all styles for roushou etc which will only benefit everyone. Sounds like another convert to BaGua.:D
     
  5. Azrael

    Azrael Fighting Spirit

    Nice post nzric, you pretty much summed it up. I was really impressed with your skill level btw, you have a very natural way of moving. Keep it up. Damn I felt like a baby in that place! Was an awesome experience though, just as you said, and I did learn alot. Was good to have such a good group too.

    Well, today we went through our palm changes for the first half of the day. There were only two of us, and the other gentleman who was training with me has alot more experience, so he did a bit more than I did. I decided to mainly focus on my downward plam for the day. Better to get that half decent, than 3 or 4 palms that are just crap. After a very nice session of yum cha kung fu, we got stuck into more chin na. We were taught a two person sequence this time. Needless to say, this was very impressive, and you could really see Master Ma's experience coming through. We spent the rest of the aftrenoon soaking this in, and also played around with it a bit, which was alot of fun. Looking forward to showing you guys at the park.

    Anyway, pretty average summary compared to nzrics, but only one hand is working (hehe), and I am about due to hit the futon. My legs are killing me, and tomorrow is another big day! I'll keep you guys posted! Take care.
     
  6. pandajelly

    pandajelly New Member

    Omigosh ! Could it be ?

    Zounds like Empty Force or was it Dim Mak?
    Did anyone ask Master Ma to prove it under scientifically controlled conditions ?
    Would he consider doing these stunts in a circus and donating all proceeds to orphans. It'd be much better for his Karma.

    Oh, could it be Master Ma is a Daoist too and avoids chi draining publicity like Master Bing too. After all he'd already wasted enuff shocking the reporter.

    Yikes !
     
  7. pandajelly

    pandajelly New Member

    Omigosh ! Could it be ?

    Zounds like Empty Force or was it Dim Mak?
    Did anyone ask Master Ma to prove it under scientifically controlled conditions ?
    Would he consider doing these stunts in a circus and donating all proceeds to orphans. It'd be much better for his Karma.

    Oh, could it be Master Ma is a Daoist too and avoids chi draining publicity like Master Bing too. After all he'd already wasted enuff shocking the reporter.

    Yikes !
     
  8. nzric

    nzric on lookout for bad guys

    This is hilarious. Didn't I tell you he'd try to hijack other threads! Only took two hours and he's back (check the clock at the bottom of the post).

    Just for your info, it was acupressure - nerve strikes, he told me himself when I went to another workshop this afternoon. Yep, that's covered in western medicine as well.

    PJ - no-one wants to hear. Grab a soapbox and start your own thread if you've got something to say. Don't try to take over threads that have nothing to do with your pet project.
     
  9. Azrael

    Azrael Fighting Spirit

    I can confirm that. He actually used it on me on Thursday. My leg was cramping up at the knee to the point where I was really struggling, and he came over and hit several points, the last of which really hurt, and I was able to get straight back into it.

    How was the afternoon session today, Nzric? Was so mad that I could not make it. Was my damn girlfriends fault!
     
  10. pandajelly

    pandajelly New Member

    This is hilarious.
    Isn't that what you tried to do with the Sifu Beng thread.....push your pet project : Park TaiChi ??

    Then you posted 10 other messages challenging the validity of Empty Force because that was your pet project

    Not good to dish it out if you can't take it mate.
    :)

    P.S.
    I'm glad it wasn't Empty Force Master Ma used on the reporter.
    We are not supposed to "show off" like that..... only to save ourselves , loved ones and and dear chi-less IMA friends we may have.

    :D
     
  11. nzric

    nzric on lookout for bad guys

    Ah no...

    We invited you down to the park because we saw you were a Sydney-based IMA person and since you have a very different perspective from us, it would be good to meet and learn in an open environment. It was a brief invite but you blew it into a big issue through your superior attitude towards other IMA people.

    The validity of empty force has everything to do with your teacher because that is his main selling point.

    NOW... Pandajelly, I'll put this simply. Forums were designed for talk about the subject topic. Threads can evolve but lately you have clearly been hijacking all the IMA threads to serve your own purpose (that is, your attitude towards empty force).

    If you want to talk about empty force, make a forum named empty force and we can all go in and have a chat about it there. This particular thread is about a few workshops run by Grandmaster Ma. Show your respect to the forum owner, and us, by sticking to the subject at hand.
     
  12. pandajelly

    pandajelly New Member

    This is hilarious.
    Isn't that what you tried to do with the Sifu Beng thread.....push your pet project : Park Tai Chi ??

    Then you posted 10 other messages ,disguised mocking , implied sneering at Empty Force ?
    You and your cronies then TOOK OVER and monopolised a thread originally intended to discuss Master Bing's class availability.

    Don't dish it out if you can't take it mate.
    That, show some respect first if you expect respect from others.
     
  13. pandajelly

    pandajelly New Member

    And the reason why I'm in this thread now is because your Grandmaster Ma ( see Azrael's story), whom you speak so highly of, is telling you stuff that corroborates what Sifu Bing said about Daoist conserving Personal Energy,not saving orphans etc .

    It completely invalidates your criticism of Sifu Bing.
    It frustrates you because it proves your misguided judgment of Sifu Bing was wrong.

    As long as I'm discussing Grandmaster Ma, I'm staying relevant and respecting the implied rules of this thread.So it is inappropriate of you to tell me to go away.

    Look mate, I don't wish to rub anyone's face in it, but when I first heard about Daoist "apathy" I too was quite uncomfortable with it...like you, because I too like to help people,maybe not to your extent. But after hearing the reasons,I now understand.

    Have you even considered that Grandmaster Ma and Sifu Beng will probably agree with each other more than you and me ?
     
  14. nzric

    nzric on lookout for bad guys

    What Master Ma teaches is not supernatural, so it's not what we were talking about before.

    You need help.
     
  15. pandajelly

    pandajelly New Member

    Supernatural?
    Who said anything about Supernatural and psychics ?
    You said it, not I.
    The Dao is The Way and refers to all things natural.

    Seems not only are you doing Chi-less IMA, looks like it is Dao-less as well.

    Studying a C-IMA without first studying the Dao is as good as just studying Shaolin.

    Even Master Ma 's writings ( see his webpage on Jarek's site) talks EXTENSIVELY about developing Chi as an Energy.
    In other Words, according to him, you are D.E.A.D WRONG about Chi being Hypnosis and BioMechanics.

    You need vitamins.
     
  16. nzric

    nzric on lookout for bad guys

    As I've said before, I believe wholeheartedly about chi cultivation, meditation and energy work. I agree absolutely with using Taoist thought to enrich your IMA (as I've said many times).

    The only thing you and I disagree about is that you can use chi power to zap your enemies from a distance. That's the rub. I have a lot of respect for teachers who teach chi cultivation work - that's not supernatural. Empty force is.

    As I've said before (about the 'chi ball' meditation and qigong), if it works it works, who cares if it's in your mind.
     
  17. Azrael

    Azrael Fighting Spirit

    pandajelly: Please do not turn this thread into a debate about empty power and its related fields. Open a thread specifically related to empty power if you are wanting to discuss it. As Nzric said, please respect the purpose of this thread. If you wish to make a point using something that someone said here, simply quote & link on your empty power thread, and allow it to continue there.
     
  18. Azrael

    Azrael Fighting Spirit

    P.S Add a poll to it as well.
     
  19. pandajelly

    pandajelly New Member

    Not discussing Empty Power here.
    Just pointing out that your respected GrandMaster Ma Chuan Xu said the same thing about Daoist conserving energy to the point of not saving others, exactly what my Empty Force teacher said.

    nzric had ridiculed my teacher for that , so I was just re-dressing the situation here, an appropriate place since this thread is about Grandmster Ma.

    Don't worry, if no one challenges this statement I just made, this will be the end of the matter.

    But I will not let any slur on my teacher go uncorrected, just as you too would "protect" the reputation of your respective respectable teachers.
     
  20. Azrael

    Azrael Fighting Spirit

    Grandmaster Ma also said a number of other things regarding empty power, which I will not share here as it is not the place to do so. Like I said, start a thread specifically concerning empty power, and allow this debate to continue there. If I read the thread and feel it is a mature debate containing no ego based posts or sales pitches, then I will give you my thoughts on empty power (which for the record was never the main 'issue' on the Bing Zhao thread), as well as thoughts that Grandmaster Ma shared with us regarding this topic.
     

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