Sword form question.

Discussion in 'Kuk Sool' started by Quozl, Feb 27, 2009.

  1. Quozl

    Quozl Valued Member

    I have a quick question to ask about sword forms. ALthoguh not yet a black belt, and therefore not learing any sword forms, I assume that the forms were "designed" to condition the swordsman to working with the weapon for combat, and therefore all of them will inclde within the movements blocks, feints, stabs, cuts, parries, etc, to enable the swordsman to work with the sword. I presume that in times past this would be accompanied with some form of sparring with blunt or wooden weapons to get actual combat experience. Therefore all the movements within a sword form would have a purpose. Please correct me if my assumptions are wrong.

    My question is therefore this. Every sword form I have seen in KSW begins with the practitioner bringing the sheathed sword up to the right hand side above head height, whereupon the sheathed sword is twirled around for several turns, before bringing the sword back to the left hip where the sword is then drawn and the form begins. What is the purpose of the twrily bit?

    If anybody knows I would be very greatful.

    Cheers All,

    Quozl.
     
  2. KSstudent

    KSstudent Valued Member

    you wouldn't do pushups or situps in batle but they would help you be better prepaired,
    same with forms they are not desinged to just emulate battle.....my thoughts anyway.....the "swirley" movements do increase wrist strengh / flexabiliy and controel of your wepon.
     
  3. kswflip

    kswflip Valued Member

    the way i remeber it the first twist is wrist alinement the second elbow alinement the third shoulder alinement shoot me down if i have this wrong
     
  4. Bahng Uh Ki

    Bahng Uh Ki Valued Member

    <Holding sword at shoulder level, horizontally> "Mind into the sword." You need to alwasy be aware of where your sword is, become one with the sword.

    <Hold sword at a 45 degree angle, crossing it with a knife hand> "Lower abdomen breathing." Your breath should always be low, it is more medatative and you can breath deeper.

    <swing the sword three times> "Shoulder, elbow and wrist preparation." Help limber up these joints in preparation for the hyung.

    Hyung are abstract motions. Not every motion can always be associated with a practical application.
     
  5. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    You need to slowdown, take a breath and realize that you are biting-off way too much all at once. Lets take this a step at a time.

    First off, not all forms are intended for the same purpose. Generally forms fall into one of four categories: Teaching, Training, Combat and Demonstration. Though there is always overlap between and among these purposes, usually each form has an overwhelming theme in one of these directions.

    Secondly, the cultural context of the form is pivotal. A movement such as "Rising Sun" in a non-pastoral culture will make no sense at all. It is only where the snare or lasso is used to subdue and restrain an armed individual does the movement become clear. In like manner, the draw-&-cut movements of BATTOJUTSU or IAIDO make no sense in a Confucian culture but are emminently practical in a culture that includes an institutionalized warrior class.

    Thirdly, not all practicality is combat oriented. Simple movements which showcase dexterity, balance, poise, timing, focus etc etc etc can serve as a "psych" especially if accomplished with an aire of casual profficiency. You may recall the "knife thing" in the movie "ALIENS" as an example. In Korean traditions it was considered "cool" if one could incorporate a bit of casual juggling such as tossing the sword in the air overhead or twirling a KAL between and among one's fingers. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  6. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    Sorry, Quozl, despite your wonderful attempts to keep things civil with your "trash talk" thread, I have to derail this one ever so slightly (BTW, the answers you were looking for appeared in posts #2 thru #4).

    While I agree with almost everything stated by Bruce, I have to pick some bones about this:
    I've never heard anything to substantiate the first part of this statement. And I doubt that passages in ancient tomes saying, "the sword LEAPT into his hands" can be properly cited, assuming that the wielder drew his sword, tossing it into the air (thus simulating a leap) before using it to cut down a foe. I feel it's just a poetic way to say he drew it quickly, without hesitation.

    The only incidence I've ever heard that comes close was about a general/admiral (maybe Yi Sun Shin - I think?) who had a rather long sword, and therefore the extreme length of the blade prevented using a "standard" drawing technique, as the end would not clear the scabbard. If I'm not mistaken, he supposedly developed a unique method to draw the blade quickly, that did incorporate a "toss" of sorts. Accounts of this one exceptional soldier doesn't mean that it was a common practice, however, as most swordsmen didn't use overly long swords.

    My apologies if I got it wrong, but comments are always welcome (and what forums are all about, right?).
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2009
  7. ember

    ember Valued Member

    Since Bahng Uh Ki answered Quozl's question, can we move Bruce's discussion to a new thread? I have some things I want to ask about his videos and some stuff I've seen out here... later, when I have time.
     
  8. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Actually, Unknown, the MYTBTJ identifies both a twirling motion as well as tossing the sword into the air. (See: YANGKAK JOCHUNSE and YOSUN CHAMASE; Chapter "YEDO CHONG BO", MYTBTJ). Personally I see these maneuvers as representative of a larger constellation of sword skills but that can wait for another thread.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  9. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    I stand corrected...

    MYDBTJ - Turtle Press, trans. SH Kim, PhD
    page 153: Yosun Chamsase or Right Sword Throwing Posture. However, this movement is also invoked to be repeated 3 times, so my guess is that it's a way for a swordsman to become extremely familiar with his weapon WRT weight, balance. etc. as well as not be "afraid" of it, and I seriously doubt that this is a recommended battlefield maneuver. FWIW.
     
  10. Quozl

    Quozl Valued Member

    Many thanks all for your help here.

    The knowledge you have imparted to me is most appreciated.


    All the best,

    Quozl
     
  11. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    This is just a wild guess and only a wild guess...................

    The MYTBTJ was intended to govern the training of corvee troops. What do you want to bet that the original interpretation of tossing the short sword in the air was being able to actually throw it with accuracy. However, not wanting to instruct such techniques to the general population it was enough to substitute simply tossing the sword in the air. Just a thought.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  12. MadMonk108

    MadMonk108 JKD/Kali Instructor

    Given that the sets are extrapolations or directly sets from CMA, several CMA broadsword sets include sword tosses as flourishes. The Plum Flower Sabre I learned in Sibpalgi finished with a sabre toss at the end.
     
  13. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    Agreed MM108, knife throwing and sword throwing are considerably different. And despite that YEDO is being translated as "short sword" I believe it's because the length is around 30 inches instead of 40 or so (including the handle). Most of the weapons I've seen that are referred to as a short sword rarely exceed much beyond 18 inches. FWIW.
     
  14. MadMonk108

    MadMonk108 JKD/Kali Instructor

    It'd look at as 1) a cosmetic flourish, 2) a way to familiarize the practitioner with the weight & heft of his weapon in a completely non-combative application in order to improve weapon handling & coordination...

    ...sort of like spinning two jang bong....;P
     
  15. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    And when you were learning this particular movement, did your own teacher offer any thoughts on its nature? Comments?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  16. MadMonk108

    MadMonk108 JKD/Kali Instructor

    Yeah.

    "Don't stab yourself."

    It was simple weapon familiarization.

    It was not training on sword throwing for combat.

    You don't throw your primary weapon. You throw knives. You throw darts. You keep your sword with you.

    That's not even getting into the aerodynamic issues of throwing a weapon not designed for more than a simple juggle toss in the air. The motion was an exchange from a right handed orthodox grip to a left handed "ice-pick" grip with a right hand cover.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2009
  17. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Hmmmm....... thats one I had not thought of.

    I can envision a situation where a person using primarily a R-hand grip is wounded and must switch to a L-hand grip out of desperation. Interesting thought.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  18. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    For your information.

    When a japanese swordsman brings the sword up to the side of his head then cuts down to the hip before sheathing it is called chiburi and is a cleansing of blood from the blade.

    regards koyo
     
  19. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Has anyone actually decided that this is what is going on? I remember much spirited discussion on SFI regarding whether this is a practical observation or "suggestive". The arguement seems to be that it is near-impossible to generate sufficient centrifugal force to shed blood and gore from a blade in such a manner.

    OTOH, in Korean sword there is often a simlar motion excuted close to or at the end of a hyung which identifies "cleansing" but more in terms of the mind and spirit---- a sort of "whew"-moment usually entailing ZAN SHIN -- ending a flurry of techniques. Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  20. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    In japanese swordsmanship it is more symbolic. The warriors did carry paper to clean the blade.
    As you say the chiburi ends with the kisaki (point) pointing at the downed opponent and the warrior maintains zanshin.


    regards koyo
     

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