S Lindsey, You are in the North of England. Take a trip to Manchester One Sunday evening visiters are always welcome. My biggest problem with the, 'I need to see it in sparring to know it is real brigade' is that sparring is not real fighting. I know this because I have spent the last 9 years as a front line Police Officer. During this time I have had sufficient experience to tell me that the way we train provides the goods when I need it. How many other people posting on Martial Arts Forums can say that? By using a series of drills and games there is a natural progression that develops the skills needed for the kind of work being learnt. Take for instance knife defence. The first thing to practice is being poked with the tip of the knife. On contact with the blade allow the part of the body being poked move out of the way. The next step would be to learn to flatten the knife against the body upon contact. Then we could move onto using this movement to effect their form and provide opportunities for takedowns ect. From there we may progress onto drills that allow us to work against stabs or slashes. It is the way we break down things into drills and not techniques that allows Systema students to progress faster than they would in a technique orientated enviroment, but again it is simple to say this. The proof of the pudding is always in the tasting. Paul Genge Russian Martial Arts Northwest (UK)
The question in bold I can say I do from experience. Sparring I do not see as all that removed from a real fight. If you can land a punch and weather the storm in sparring then you will perform well in a real fight based upon how realistic your sparring is. Some of the Systema knife work looks fantastic but I think you need to be very good at it to be able to use it as whilst I do practice some of them I am more in favour of perhaps simpler knife defences that keep the blade as far away from me rather than trapping it against my body. Just my 2p worth - both are valid but for my I prefer keeping the blade as many inches away from me as possible.
Simply put when being kicked on the floor you have to remember 2 things cover up & get up that is about all there is too it, if there close enough to kick you then grab around the torso area and use them to climb to your feet. Takes seconds to get up and you have the option to use them to sheild you from others. This worked very well for me - simply put cover up and get up.
I think some of Sonshu points are really good. Sometimes I think systema is best suited to the more mature martial artist, that has already got a solid foundation in basics and wants to progress further. Having said that though, it in no way negates the effectiveness of the systema approach. Paul's comments about using it at the front line are very apt, sometimes we get too hooked on sparring or competition results. There are other equally effective ways of validating techniques/approaches.
Saprring should not be discounted for its ability to prepare you to drop someone quickly. One reason why styles like Systema, Aikido and Ninjitsu are often used be people in the police is they need restraint technqiues. In reality if they were not going to lose the job they have I think more cops would punch people in the face more, as there not permitted to do this as the norm for restraint they need the less sparring styles that focus on control techniques, however I feel if they were permitted to use more force the Kickboxing, Thai, Boxing style aproaches would be more favoured in a lot of cases.
yes, quite simply you are, but it isn't your fault Systema, like krav maga, is a combat system instilled in military proffessionals. These principles didn't come out of thin air! People with significant combat experience, tasked with the role of preparing close-quarters combat courses for new recruits, pooled wisdom and developed systems of personal protection which worked! These systems then get taught as martial arts to civillians and we question the training methods? Seems a little arrogant to me. If you are looking for effective technique demonstrations, you are missing the essence of what these arts are all about. Instead of looking for a 'technique' which you can remember will always work in situation x under conditions y, look at the video's again and try to discern the defenders 'technique' or his 'knack for defending', then you will see what the videos are intending to present. The defender shows a relaxed versatility when faced with different angles of attack, he remains calm and controlled and works to bring the situation to a close with a minimum of fuss. People look at demonstrations like this and wonder if it would be effective in 'real conditions', but they fail to realise that they are seeing 'real conditions'. The conditions are purposefully slow and controlled, 1- so people can observe the principles in action and 2- because these methods performed at speed will injure or kill. But the conditions are still 'real'. You may get where i'm coming from, you may not. For the record, i don't have any experience whatsoever in this art, i just understood the motivation for, and style of, the videos.
Sonshu, Believe me Police Officers are allowed to and do hit people, but often there has to be an element of restraint because our opponents are often trying to escape. It is all about using what is reasonable and appropriate to the situation. Systema is not a style whose focus is on restraint, but it comes out often in my work. If your get a chance to watch Michael or Vladimir work they tend to focus on striking. I think the reason that locks and throws often come out in my work is due to both my proffession and my past martial arts experience. Funny enough whilst in Russia I met a Major from the GRU (intelligence unit). Until 9 years ago he only learnt the system with a firearm. He now studies under Michael Ryabko and is filling in some of the gaps. Paul Genge Russian Martial Arts Northwest (UK)
First off, if I happen to be in Manchester (which I may well be over the summer) I would love to come and see you trainning. From what you say their isnt much to really argue about. If you say the technique will work, you need to feel it to be sure and I say it doesnt really look like it will then we are at a stalemate.
xenmaster, As far as I am aware Systema is not taught to new recruits. Whilst in Moscow we attended one special forces base and watched a selection test. There they used Combat Sambo, but as some of our guests pointed out though special these troops were only designed to last 20 minutes in battle. Other troops learn various aspects of Systema. It seems to depend on what their unit is and who they know as to what they learn. In Russia there are several styles that have alot in common technically as we as being taught within Spetsnaz circles. Michael Ryabko is one of those teachers. Whilst in Moscow various members of special forces units attanded to visit Michael. One of those travelled from Siberia to spend only two days with Michael. Paul Genge Russian Martial Arts Northwest (UK)
cheers for the correction, i was just trying to get accross the point that it is a military system which has been proven to be effective...the analogy i gave was how i imagined arts such as this would have come into being, but my real point was that sometimes people are to quick to criticise without first giving their criticism some thought.
I try to make it a rule that I don't make comments on subjects that I now little or nothing about. It is better to ask questions and seak a little experience before making comment. I understood where you were coming from with your comment about millitary training. The only reason I corrected you was to stop people thinking that we claim that Systema is taught to basic recruits and then using it to fuel their argument. Paul Genge Russian Martial Arts Northwest (UK)
Yes Police are governed by the same laws as most people, if they were able to without repocussions use fists I think most would as its easier than restraint. Simply the same laws of reasonable as the rest of us. I can see your movements come from Taijitsu that much is obvioius.
did any of you guys look at the video clips on that site? :bang: funniest thing i've seen in a LONG time. aren't we having a discussion on aliveness in training right now? i have never ever EVER seen anyone be so lackidasical or compliant in a drill. i hope they all get knifed, shot, stabed and beaten with a stick for attending this guys class. :woo:
Now now tekken Its often Taijitsu that makes demos look a bit lethargic. I am not gonna get into this one mate. Some of Taijitsu is good some of it is poo - For me the jury is out on Systema as I have done some of it but it seems to move away from my strengths so I am gonna bow out on this one, could do with seeing more of it and more of a play with it.
Both very good observations. It is too easy to state that just because ou do a certain system you must be good. Lets be honest there are now many schools teaching MMA that have no pedigree. It is the same with both the Bujinkan and Systema. Unlike some Sonshu realises that to make an informed opinion it takes a little experience of the subject being discussed. Paul Genge Russian Martial Arts Northwest
Lo tekkengod, So what experience have you got in Systema? What do you understand about it's concepts, methods of training etc.....???? Funny you should say that because that sort of thing tends to happen to me on a regular basis in my Systema training....well apart from the getting shot bit and we are just stabbed a little bit
I do understand Tekkens questions and I have said from what little systema I have done I do think I would find it hard to work but its knife work can be very good just odd - I do use and teach some techniques I know from Systema and I do know for me what worked in my years of doing Ninjitsu. However I do understand Tekkens views - I guess I am in the middle in both camps but not sitting on the fence.
I understand his views too but there are better ways of putting them accross You've got some experience of "The System" therefore to me you have a valid base to argue from. I just wanted to know what his experience of Systema was. oh congrats on getting married
fair point, but i've just re-read my original post about new-recruits and i didn't explicitly state that Systema was taught to new-recruits, i made a generalisation. My wording didn't clearly put accross what i was trying to say. I was simply hypothesising about how military-based systems of personal protection would become formalised...hence my comments about combat veterans pooling knowledge and discerning what principles underlie the techniques they discovered in the field and attempting to derive a system of knowledge, based upon experience, which can be passed on to the next generation of military proffesionals. I did also quailfy my post by saying I had no experience of the specific details of Systema itself. It is irritaing when people share knowledge and offer the benefit of their experience to a wider audience and people respond by picking aspects of a technique or demonstration and claim 'this or that' wouldn't work. Put any technique, drill or exercise under the microscope and flaws will be found...nothing is perfect. When the 'picking' starts it usually spells the end of a thread and the opportunity for discussing the topic intelligently is lost. i am, and always have been, a civillian. As such, if I want to further my understanding of true martial conditions, then I listen to those who have been in such situations for real and have seen the theory applied in practice. If people have doubts about the effectiveness of a video clip, for example, then why not ask for clarification, instead of condeming something as ineffective?
