Surviving kicks whilst on the floor

Discussion in 'Other Martial Arts Articles' started by Paul Genge, Jun 7, 2005.

  1. Paul Genge

    Paul Genge Banned Banned

  2. BackFistMonkey

    BackFistMonkey Valued Member

    surviving kicking from the ground

    Interesting concepts , we do a fair amount of ground work in the Hapkido school I am training in now , most of the kick defenses we learn from the ground involve interception and/or evasion ( keep in mind I am a lowly little newb in Hapkido just barely getting dry behind the ears ) . I like the concepts presented in the text except I think that utilitizing these concepts would be usefull only with proper conditioning and training .

    The video seems to show trapping , interception and evasion ... the things I am learning in Hapkido except I am being taught not to expose my back as much while prone . I could only see one or two examples of rolling out of effective kicking ranges ( either away or towards ) while recieving the kick as the text describes . Do I need to look more carefully ?

    Thanks for sharing

    Last edited: Jun 7, 2005
  3. gojuman

    gojuman Valued Member

    I did not see the video of the kicks on the ground attached to the article. I did see the other videos. If systema means goofy then I guess they were doing what they are suposed to be doing.
    Look at the knife defenses. There are 10 separate attacks. If the defender is able to survive half of them in reallity I would be surprised. In the first 4 techniques pictured he leaves the knife completely alone. I know he is going soft for demo purposes, but the likelyhood of these techniques working is very remote.
    Some of the gun defenses were less silly, but the grips shown in control of the weapon can best be described as chipmonky.
    I am on a crusade. If you dont get out of the way, then control the weapon then dissarm you are asking for trouble.
  4. Paul Genge

    Paul Genge Banned Banned

    When dealing with armed opponents it is easy to become fixated on the weapon. Grabbing the weapon in an attempt to control it can add to this fixation and lead to a struggle over it. Often the strongest man wins in this situation, but the person holding the knife will have an advantage from the start.

    Control or sensitivity to the position of a weapon can be achieved through the positioning of your body in relation to the opponent and weapon or by going straight to the heart of the problem and dealing with the attacker directly.

    As far as working on the ground is concerned it is preferable to not completely roll away from your opponent, because they simply chase you down and finish you off when you tire or run our of space. The idea is to allow the part of the body under threat to escape the attack so that you can maintain contact with the opponent. This in a lot of ways in not disimilar to working against a knife. After all if all you did was keep backing off from the knife you would eventually run out of space and find yourself cornered.

    Paul Genge
    Russian Martial Arts Northwest (UK)
  5. gojuman

    gojuman Valued Member

    I have heard this argument many times and it does not fly.
    These videos depict a deflection and then a strike, but the weapon remains in the attackers hand. There are very few strikers that can dissable an opponent with one strike and there are even fewer attackers that can be dissabled with one strike.
    You compare the defense of gun with knife and I agree more with the videos showing the gun defense. The weapon in the videos is controlled and then the attacker is dissarmed. This can be done against a knife attack aswell.
    Knocking someone down while they still have the knife or twisting them with them holding the knife is just asking for trouble. Might work but is too risky. You would'nt let the gun attacker hold onto the knife, so don't let the knife holder keep his weapon.
  6. Defender

    Defender New Member

    I spent a good chunk of time researching defense against an armed opponent, for my money, Krav maga has the straightforward and effective means.
  7. BackFistMonkey

    BackFistMonkey Valued Member

    So your saying instead of evade and/or intercept and then recover to your feet , you should accept the attack and control him down to you where you grapple with them ? I kept seeing the attacker come down on or near the defender then very little follow through to finish or subdue the attacker. I dont think this was a wise thing to do unless you had too like , if you run out of room or when you couldnt make it to your feet ( continuous attacks or bad timing ).And then I think some sort of completion would be good ...
  8. Paul Genge

    Paul Genge Banned Banned

    The clips are illustrating work against kicks from the floor. Not grappling or striking on the ground. When working for real or sparring it is better to take things to their logical conclusion.

    Paul Genge
  9. Gyaku

    Gyaku Valued Member

    I think what is missing from some of these posts is that systema is a very creative art. It teaches no specific techniques but rather to react to the situation at hand. Basically I believe it works, I've incorporated this type of training into teaching karate, its really improved my students abilities. What you're seeing in the various videos is the creativeness of systema, note how no techniques were repeated? Thanks for posting the link, very interesting.
  10. Paul Genge

    Paul Genge Banned Banned


    You are right Systema does not teach techniques and that is where most people get confused when they see clips. The cliche we that would not work for real falls away because if the situation changes so does the work.

    Paul Genge
  11. xen

    xen insanity by design

    i liked the links, cheers paul,

    but i couldn't view the clips associated with the icon or am i having a blind day?

    the other clips serve to illustrate the priciples of the art nicely.

    it was nice to see controlled flowing movements, but it would also be good to see a relaxed and flowing defender working with a more 'realistic' attacker, ie someone who is not so compliant.

    I know this would look 'messier', but thats the reality of a fight.

    Specifically regarding the kicks/floor aspect; (remember i haven't seen the vid, just going off the article)

    would i be right in surmising that the Systema principle here is to draw your opponent in and bring them to the ground, to level the odds and move into finishing them off with ground-fighting skills?

    We've been doing similar work at our dojo this year, practicing/learning how trip and control an attacker from the ground as he kicks. Not as easy as it first appears!
  12. Paul Genge

    Paul Genge Banned Banned

    I might have to look at my page layout. You are not the first to miss that there is another page to the article. The clip is on the end of that. Check the tool bar when on page two of the article. There is a button for a further page.

    Yes by bring the opponent we can equalise the playing field, but we prefer not to grapple in the Judo/MMA sense of the word. One of the reasons for this is that if we tie ourselves into one opponent we run the risk of being a sitting target for the second or third attacker.

    By concentrating on allowing the body parts under threat to escape our opponents can often cause themselves to fall because the body part they were trying to draw support from simply was not there. For a better idea of this principle check out my article on working without contact.

    Paul Genge
    Russian Martial Arts Northwest (UK)
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2005
  13. gojuman

    gojuman Valued Member

    I was now able to see the video for the kick defense from the ground. Solid principles to practice. They are basic aiki techniques utilizing the feet and legs in a similar fashion to standing defense with arms and hands.
  14. Paul Genge

    Paul Genge Banned Banned

    There are only so many ways to move effectively with the human body. The funny thing is people want to own them and put them in a box marked with their name on. Systema does not own the principles, but they have some very clever ways of training them.

    Paul Genge
    Russian Martial Arts Northwest (UK)
  15. gojuman

    gojuman Valued Member

    Very true. I apologize for my earlier degrading comment on systema. I should have contained my criticism to the actual technique.
    As far as technques go our ryu has established a system of identifiing the Number one technique for a particular attack. After comfort is gained on the number one we branch out to utilze options. The number one can ceese to be an effective technique depending on many variables and circumstances. While the options exist there is a hyerarchy of effectivness depending on these variables.
    Even though there are options, the options must follow a criteria. For example. To defend against a weapon if you are empty handed you must first get out of the line of fire. Then control the weapon. Then dissarm. There are several options pertaining to controling the weapon with the number one technique deemed to be superior in most cases. If the number one does not make sense maybe because of the size of the opponent or because of your body position and surroundings or because you are standing too close to an innocent bystander (your spouse for example) you then move on to one of many many options that fullfill the criteria.
    I am sorry to digress from the original post, but the Systema videos got me going.
  16. Paul Genge

    Paul Genge Banned Banned

    Getting out of the line of attack is our prefered option. However when this is not possible it is possible to move the opponent so that the strike does not make contact. The big difference is that we learn to move instinctually. This is very different from practicing something until it becomes your own instinct.

    One of the advantages with this approach is the ability to adapt to any situation without the need for complex decission making. The last thing you have time for, when faced with unfamiliar territory, is time to decide what technique is appropriate.

    Paul Genge
    Russian Martial Arts Northwest (UK)
  17. gojuman

    gojuman Valued Member

    Very true indeed. Thinking is not the answer. The ability to have 'no mind' is what we can both agree on.
    The point of practicing options is to free oneself of having to think. A paradox to be sure, but an effective tool. It is when you think that you hesitate and get stuck or shot.
  18. CosmicFish

    CosmicFish Aleprechaunist

    I'm curious to know how you train this. Presumably it's different from the usual method of practising the same drills over and over until they become habit?
  19. Albert

    Albert Banned Banned

    eeek. that looks really bad on video, heh. i watched two of them vids and it looks really weak. Im sure it isnt, but they dont seem to know how to make it look just alittle realistic while showing the moves.
  20. Slindsay

    Slindsay All violence is necessary

    I have some real doubts about the techniques shown, I just dont believe that in a full speed enviroment someone could move fast enough to avoid/significantly reuce the force of the blows being delivered.

    As an example at about 24 seconds in we see the guy move beneath a stomping kick but as I see it the movement isnt that fast and the original attacker just keeps moving through the area where the guy was.

    Also the attacker seems to fall way to easily, again giving an example at about 12 seconds in to the video I find the technique being demonstarted far to coreographed.

    My other issue is that a lot of the takedowns dont put you in that great a position, in particular looking at the first technique shown the attacker (If it was me attacking anyway) would at least have ended up on top in the grapple, quite possibly they would land with all their weight on top of you as well.

    Im aware that you say this has more to do with principle than technique but I dont like the techniques that are derived from the principles. Id really like to see the techniques applied in a sparring style environment to get some idea of how they would look in real life though because I could be wrong.

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