Supposed "knock-off" versions

Discussion in 'Kuk Sool' started by unknown-KJN, Mar 22, 2010.

  1. MasterDunchok

    MasterDunchok Valued Member

    What part in particular would you like me to address?
     
  2. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned


    Not quite yet, M-D, but the next section will have to do with the THREE KINGDOMS Period and perhsaps you may have some thoughts there. I had asked earlier how people felt about the way I treated the KOJOSEON Period and didn't get any responses so the door is still open there. I made much less of the WIMAN era than did Barry (Harmon) in his book so I'd be interested in comments regarding this as well. Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  3. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    Hi, everyone. I just wanted to mention something that actually occurred to me quite some time ago, but due to the fact that explaining it will be rather tedious, I kept putting it off. Then I decided to blow it off entirely when it looked as if the thread discussion was going in a different direction, and to be quite honest, I would much rather prefer that it did (referring to the historical aspects hat Bruce W Sims, among others, was going to present). But once this change in topic took hold, the thread seemed to die down a bit (no activity for a week now).

    So all I wanted to mention, was yet another fact in the argument surrounding "goodwill theft." First, let me reiterate that I do not deny the enormous effort put forth by IHS WRT building his MA empire. However, I still feel as if the goodwill only applies to the term, "kuk sool won" and not the term, "kuk sool." The explanation that follows is where it will get a little "long-winded."

    Recently on the "KS family tree" thread, master Farshid Shabafroozan contributed information that the bulk of the schools in Iran follow lineage back to him and not master Darius Ghaffari. This is of little consequence WRT my point, as either way the lineage of the iranian schools still trace back to WKSA. Evidence presented on the "new wksa web site" thread will substantiate that when the revamped appearance was enacted for the WKSA website, that older, out-of-date info was used to populate the various pages of the website. One thing different that I noticed was that the schools in Iran were listed. FWIW, they had been removed prior to the new look which now graces the WKSA website.

    I must caution that the following paragraph is sheer speculation on my part, but if I had to hazard a guess, I would draw a rather convoluted conclusion which revolves around terrorism. Even though WKSA's founder is now a naturalized citizen of the USA, I believe he still retains his citizenship for the ROK. Being korean, it could be posited that he is actually a north korean spy (or possibly members of his organization). Since the iranian government wanted to work with DPRK for nuclear advancement, dropping affiliation with the schools in Iran may have seemed like a good idea to help steer too close a scrutiny away from WKSA, especially until the whole mess surrounding the franchise had been cleared up (fear of business fraud issues?). No corporate identity would want to be brought up on charges of tax evasion, as it's extremely difficult to recover from such a "black-eye" when trying to build PR.

    Whatever the reason, the iranian schools were at one point, suddenly removed from being listed on the WKSA website without explanation. (case #1)

    Most of the schools in Europe can trace their lineage back to one of the masters in GB, or to being stationed on a US military base. Therefore direct connection to WKSA is undeniable. There are two exceptions that I'm aware of, and both happen to involve a korean master. One was in Germany, but this master eventually worked out some sort of arrangement with IHS, and is now part of the WKSA fold. The other master was located in Spain, and AFAIK is still there, just not affiliated with WKSA. I believe that prior to the encroachment of WKSA into Europe, that both of these masters used the term KS-HKD when stating the nature of their MA. (case #2)

    The last instance of non-WKSA schools located in Europe that I want to mention, is centered in Croatia. IIRC, the croatian schools draw their lineage back to KSK, not KSW. But I am aware that a number of years ago, the head of the croatian schools contacted WKSA with the hopes of being admitted into the organization. You guessed it, they were flatly denied. (case#3)

    It seems to me, that if you are a world-wide organization and purport that the term "kuk sool" is non-generic and specific only to your group, that you would not disown members simply because of bad publicity (ref. case #1), nor would you deny admittance to any seeking membership simply on the grounds of different lineage (ref. case #3). And why if seeking inclusion of an errant/rogue master in an area you are currently trying to bolster (i.e. Europe), why wouldn't you also try to reincorporate other errant masters in the same area/region? (ref. case #2)

    The fact that WKSA is guilty on all three counts, confirms for me that they are not wholly serious about wanting the name "kuk sool" as an equivalent to "kuk sool won."

    The question remains if such behaviour is convincing enough for you. :dunno:
     
  4. Demdike

    Demdike Banned Banned

    I think theres a more basic problem with the Iranian schools

    As I understand it USA companies aren't allowed to have trade contacts with Iran - let alone own/control Iranian businesses
    And as for anything that could be deemed as military (and martial arts is surely "military training" in a sense) then thats a total ban. (unless your name is Oliver...)

    Similar problem with Croatia - didn't the USA embargo military assistance to everyone in the Yugoslav crisis?
     
  5. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Mmmmmm.......it also begs another question.....but one that people may be a bit more reluctant to answer.

    How serious are NON-WKSA people about taking up the mantle of "Kuk sool".

    At first glance I know the this might seem like a contrived or "straw man" argument, but just look at some of the responses we have so far. To my eye it seems that people are willing to accept a poor "facsimile' of the WKSA rather than take responsibility for developing something that could easily surpass what the WKSA has to offer.

    Certainly there is a lot of high-toned talk and people seem brimming with good intentions. Translating that into action takes more than just tall talk. The WKSA may have its short-comings but they all have the advantage of name-recognition and an established bureacracy. Maybe the idea of having to walk in an established organization's shadow for a while has people intimidated. Maybe this is what the WKSA is counting on. I don't know. Just spitballing right now.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2010
  6. MasterDunchok

    MasterDunchok Valued Member

    I've said it before, but for the record let me state that KSK people have no compunction against maintaining the mantle of "Kuk Sool" for ourselves and our posterity - as we always have. Many of us, believe it or not, did not even know much about WKSA and Kuk Sool was ours as far as we knew. As such, we have our curriculum, system, and so forth, and it may/may not be better than that of WKSA - but for that reason we certainly have no stigma about what "Kuk Sool" and its legacy means and is, nor does the breakdown of WKSA's Kuk Sool affect ours.

    (iow, Kuk Sool has always been Kuk Sool to us, and we're not going to apply some neutral semantic nomenclature like "Gung Jung Mu Sool" or "TKMA" because of the onus of the "mantle of Kuk Sool" - we're quite used to bearing it - and being it.)
     
  7. VegasMichelle

    VegasMichelle Valued Member

    FWIW, the crux of documentation or lack thereof might also have to do with ancient literacy rates. Not only must the history be written by the victors and/or their hired scribes, these people must also possess the ability to record history so that the masses will understand the vernacular. IIRC, the tilting pointing did not occur until well into the Three Kingdoms Period. Hence, you may have a period-bubble.

    I think you answered this before...to the effect of people want to have their cake and eat it too.

    Finally, a good point about why KSK lineage would probably safe in goodwill theft litigation if argued competently by a decent attorney.
    -----

    It strikes me that most non-Won people are making up personal rationalizations about why KS is generic or why WKSA doesn't want it. LOL. But what they don't do is argue the issue with established criteria, rather, they use anecdotal "evidence" which would probably have no weight in any court...even a Kangaroo one.

    One of the big issues that people are overlooking is the fact that you don't need to hit a homerun to score a run. It can be accomplished with 4 singles, 2 doubles, a triple and a single, 4 walks...or a combination. People here are trying to defend against the longball...meanwhile, they don't see the big picture. Protection against any run...in whatever shape it comes is more important.

    A previous lawsuit, win or lose, is an established criteria to prevent genericide, both in accounting and in Law. Thus, to simply say KS is a generic term is only an opinion with no basis in established record. This point is irrefutable and is in black-and-white in the form of Case Law...and it is amusing to see people try to dismiss this point. LOL. Thus, the entire post #323 could be easily refuted with 1 court document...and even if the judge hated IHS to his very core, if the judge were to follow the Law, judgement would favor IHS.

    Further, a goodwill theft case is not a Capital Case where something must be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. There are no 12 jurors weighing evidence of guilty or not guilty. In this case, only the preponderance of evidence to favor one side MORE LIKELY THAN NOT is all that is needed. In fact, for those scientists out there who are used to p-values of 0.01 or 0.05....all you need is a p-value of roughly 0.45. For non-scientists, this means that in most cases, acceptable certainty is 99+% (p<0.01) or 95+% (p<0.05)...but in a court, where the criteria is MORE LIKELY THAN NOT, acceptable certainly hovers around 55% (p<0.45).

    So...if you were to poll every single KS person in the world, from the white belt to the various Masters...would atleast 55% of them come from WKSA lineage? Or, without the WKSA, would KS be practiced by even half the current membership?

    Make no mistake. Goodwill is an ACCOUNTING term. Percentages matter. And the caveat is that there are exceptions...which, IMO, KSK can establish. Do I think ex-Won folks can piggyback using these exceptions? No, probably not.

    IMO, this mirrors pre-1978 federalization of Copyright Law. Whether you were more protected via stiffer penalty and burden of proof....for me, a thief is still a thief regardless of the shifting lines.
     
  8. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    Nice analysis, VM, but my point is still about the fact that goodwill established by WKSA would only pertain to "kuk sool won" and not to "kuk sool." More often than not, the WKSA uses KSW as opposed to KS when describing or discussing the MA it embraces. The fact that the KSK exists and shares a similar timeline for its history, helps to prove that KS as a way to describe a particular form of MA (just like HKD, TKD, etc.) can and should be looked at generically.

    And as if I needed to say it again, one only has to look at where the term originated to see that it's simply regarded as a shortcut way of saying KMA (hanguk-musul; 한국무술) and therefore has no specific ties to any one group.
     
  9. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    I was OK with this until you got to the last sentence and then I thought that this concept seemed to casting an awfully big net.

    I don't imagine many would accept KUK SOOL as an umbrella for the likes of HKD, TKD, TSD, Ssireum and so forth. Rather, if someone wanted to characterize KUK SOOL as it was described to me---an eclectic art which attempts to represent itself as a modern practice standing on the shoulders of past Korean traditions---- then I could probably swallow that last line. However, absent that, I would rather training in SIB PAL KI with its more authentic claim to Korean roots, than study something IHS cobbled together. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  10. VegasMichelle

    VegasMichelle Valued Member

    If you take a look at the Suh v Yang link provided by Demdike, there was an analysis of the words "Kuk Sool" AND "KSW." Separation of these entities FAILED. Further, Yang did not prove genericness of KS and thus his summary judgements were all DENIED.

    You are trying to separated KS from KSW in terms of goodwill amassed, but legally and accounting-wise, this was never done and such a motion was shot down in Court. Again, make no mistake...goodwill is an accounting term and will be seen that way by the Law. Trying to circumvent or re-invent how Judges interpret established Law is futile, IMO.

    The fact that KSK exists does not bolster the ex-Won cause. As noted above, the KSK case would probably be successful because it would be an exception. Thats the crux. They are the exception and not the rule. That is why I said ex-Won piggybacking would probably not be successful.

    As for IHS being a NK spy because he may or may not have dual citizenship. LOL. FYI, the US allows for people to be dual citizens rather freely. Meanwhile, Korea does not. True dual citizenship in Korea is almost non-existant. There is a provision instituted by the Korean National Assembly whereby once a Korean citizen is found to be a citizen of another Country, the Korean citizenship is no longer valid. Sure a Korean person can be naturalized a US citizen...and even retain previous paperwork to indicate Korean citizenship. But once the Korean govt finds out about this, their Korean citizenship is often stripped.

    There is a great advantage to having a dual citizenship (especially for women). First, the Korean govt requires compulsory military service for all men and so it is in the best interest of Korea to maintain an accurate census of true citizens and not dual citizens since dual citizens can relinquish their Korean citizenship should they be called for duty. Second, property rights and taxes heavily favor citizens. Native Korean citizens born before 1953 are usually taxed as low as 3% when they sell their property. Foreign citizens who try to sell the same property regardless of age can be taxed as high as 45%. Thus, there is a generation of Korean folks in the US that own family property in Korea....but should they sell, they would be taxed heavily if assessed as a foreign national. So in an effort to not be taxed 45% and only be taxed 3%...many Korean folks have tried to conceal their US citizenship from the Korean govt. But in the area of cutthroat real estate ventures, there are cases where competing sellers report these dual citizens in a effort to block or re-direct sales their way.

    Fear not for those above the age of 65. There is a provision in the works that will pass that seeks to re-activate previously stripped citizenship for those well past military service age. So for Koreans above the age of 65 to hold dual citizen...very possible after 2009. For Koreans under the age of 65 to hold true dual citizenship....very rare.
     
  11. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    :D
     
  12. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    Hi, Bruce.

    Yeah, I didn't mean that KS should be used by the likes of HKD, TKD, TSD, Ssireum and so on, rather that any KMA that chose to use the term could. It would be rather silly for a TKD or TSD practitioner (or grandmaster) to say they were kuksool WITHOUT also mentioning that they were TKD (or TSD, or whatever). And I realize that goes to the argument about how the term is perceived by the public (i.e. it brings forth in people's minds the stuff which was "cobbled together" by IHS, et al.), but I mentioned all of that without making a good explanation of why the various things were mentioned.

    You said that "you were with me until that last part" and the reason why I added that last part was to try and refresh the notion that the term "kuk sool" was GENRIC when coined by IHS and others. Much like there could be a GOLF organization that uses the word "golf" in its name, but the word golf by itself couldn't be attacked in a lawsuit by a rival golf group. Hopefully this makes what I wanted to convey a bit more lucid.
     
  13. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Thanks...much appreciated......... It also might be worthwhile to reflect on how the terms GUO SHU and WU SHU developed from WU WEI, though, of course, the Chinese government was involved from the start in that matter.

    Which raises something that was mentioned earlier. I seem to recall some sort of recognition by the Korean government, though I don't recall the exact nature of that recognition. Is the Korean government avoiding comment or has it been determined that IHS's KSW is the defacto representation of traditional martial traditions for the Korean people?

    I get the part about intellectual properties etc etc but how does the Korean government feel about the issues under discussion here? Comments?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  14. SsangKall

    SsangKall Valued Member

    i do not represent korea, but i dont think they care about kuk sul anymore. dont they back the ship pal gi people now as the national martial art? they do have a stronger argument for legitimacy, and their hq is actually IN korea. again, i do not represent korea.
     
  15. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Can't say for absolute sure......I sorta have to read the tea leaves just like everyone else. What follows is just my own personal opinion so you can take it for what its worth.

    Sometime around 2002 to 2004 there was quite a blow-up about the Hapkido community and what was going on inside of Korea vis what was going on outside of Korea. To keep the story short lets just say that people outside of Korea started playing fast and loose with the rules and the people inside of Korea couldn't stop them. As a result it seems that the people inside of Korea have become increasingly isolative. There is now a KIDOHAE just inside of Korea and a guy who takes care of all of the folks OUTSIDE of Korea. Then there is the World KIDO Association that we all know about as well, which is clearly divorced from the folks inside of Korea. There are SIB PAL KI people inside of Korea (under Kim) and then there are the people who are pushing to spread SIBPALKI around the World and whom Kim does not seem to want anything to do with.

    The conclusion that I draw is that the Koreans are kinda sorry that they let their traditions get away from them and have grown increasingly protective of what they do and have left. And, unless the hyjinx outside of Korea somehow touch the conservative folks back in the "Ol' Country", I figure they are thinkin' that whats going on is just those "outsiders" being their typical assinine selves.

    For myself, well, I'll be continuing my own research so this chaos about the WKSA won't actually touch me in any meaningful way. I do believe, however, that the WKSA really missed the boat on not making a greater use of the SIB PAL KI material. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2010
  16. SsangKall

    SsangKall Valued Member

    another thing(dunchok kwan jang nim's post on nomenclature roused me a little); master yang began using kung jung mu sul after receiving a packet from mrs. suh for using the term kuk SUL outside of his school in vallejo, ca. he took it straight back to master suh's doorstep, ad some things arent decided by lawyers. after the conversation with them, master yang decided no name would be used that supported his organization. a senior master (master jang in seattle) told him upon coming to america of IHS ways and to ally with JBL, but they made an agreement...needless to say that was all 30 years ago, any 'seniors' he had have retired, any juniors from the busan hogukmuyea days have left, and we haven't needed their goodwill to thrive. alot of story is purposely omitted out of respect for perspectives, privacy, and possibly slander/libel.

    as for why a "knock off" system would use a similar curriculum, why not? the curriculum's source, that is always to be debated, as sets have existed as long as hapgido has, and that is longer than kjms, ksw, ksk, or ksd. the way it was told to me is that the only college graduate in the ks crew was jung ee won, and with all the sets he had master yang, kim sun duk, a master kim, and a master yun throw each other around from 2400 to 0200 in the morning everynight from 1962-1965 until their place in the curriculum could be found. no proof, just gm stories. take it or leave it, but my instructor is one of the only people who was there that will talk.
     

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