It is my belief that the "Kuk Sool Checkin" thread should not be hijacked in order to discuss more of the franchise woes, regardless whether someone is for or against the idea of franchising a martial art. Therefore, I started this thread in the hopes that people who wish to discuss such stuff will come here, rather than pollute a thread designed for newbie MAPers to announce their arrival and proclaim which MA they practice (and that they will most likely be spending most of their time in this section of MAP). Using the fact that a thread is designated as a "sticky" (i.e. it is always at the top of the list) to make sure a post isn't *missed* or *overlooked* is definitely NOT the way to do things IMO. Pertinent posts are quoted below: post title=teaching kuk sool won
This is a misleading statement, since the CORRECT way to deliver this information would be to say that IHS is the SOLE founder of KSW, but merely one of several founders for the generic MA known as Kuk Sool. IIRC, some of the other founders were Joo Bang Lee and Woo Tak Kim. FWIW
:hailf course you are correct UK, I shouldn't let it get to me that way. It's just that in this case." Mine is better than yours ", just don't fly. And I couldn't let those statments go unchalenged. Thanks for the new thread.
"At this point, by using the name, they ARE just advertising for Kuk Sool Won. However, people will soon see the difference between the WKSA ( trademarked world-wide ) and the knock offs." (I write this post as someone who has the utmost respect for Kuk Sa Nim and the WKSA....however.......) So let me get this right. If I go to university and study, let's say Korean language, and go on to get my doctorate etc etc and then, armed with this knowledge and maybe 20 years experience of living and working in Korea, I dare to open my own Korean language school rather than work for the university I first studied at, and tell people I am teaching Korean, then I too would be be a "knock off" because I choose not to work for the university where I first studied the language? What utter C****!!!::jester::whistle::liar: Kuk Sool IS an acronym for Korean Martial Arts and therefore anyone teaching anything that can be described as Korean Martial Arts can rightly say they are teaching Kuk Sool. Also, ALL of the Korean martial arts are NOT contained within Kuk Sool Won as taught by the WKSA. Certainly a lot IS included, but there is also a lot more out there to learn. Anyway, I don't understand why non-WKSA schools using the term "Kuk Sool" is such a big problem for (some, not all) members of the WKSA when the art taught by their organisation is actually called Kuk Sool Won (TM) Quote from the WKSA website; "Kuk Sool Won™ is a systematic study of all of the traditional fighting arts, which together comprise the martial arts history of Korea. As such, Kuk Sool Won™ is extremely well organized and seeks to integrate and explore all aspects of the traditional Korean martial arts. As a martial arts system, Kuk Sool Won™ covers the entire spectrum of established Asian fighting arts and body conditioning techniques, as well as mental development and traditional weapons training. The following list includes some, but by no means all, of the elements of Kuk Sool Won™." Unquote. No mention of "Kuk Sool" here. In fact on what was I must admit a fairly quick look through the WKSAs new website I can find no mention of "Kuk Sool" whatsoever. Maybe that is because they realise that the term "Kuk Sool" IS or has become generic, much like Karate or Taekwondo, which noone can really lay claim to. In the same way, noone can say that they are the only "true" teacher of the Korean language. Certainly they could copyright a particular METHOD of teaching that language. They could also found an organisation called (for example) "The Korean Language Association" but they would still be teaching Korean. Just like I would be if I opened my own Korean Langiage school (NOT that that is at all likely! LOL). As for who is best at teaching any particular art or skill, well isn't that for the individual potential student to decide when he/she has examined each option? A bit like choosing a university maybe? And like a previous poster I would like to know what "The difference" will be that people "will soon see" about MY teaching of KUK SOOL since I left the WKSA? Come along and have look if you like. You will be welcomed by me and all my students. Oh, I forgot. You are not allowed to are you?:evil:
Hi, kiwi. FWIW, the WKSA was experiencing some legal entanglements about ten years ago, and to help strengthen their case, they needed to ensure that they ALWAYS referred to their system as KSW. So despite previous writings on occasion using the term kuk-sool instead of KSW, every instance of the *generic* rendition was expunged in anything that was current at that time (ergo, the website - and note that despite a recent facelift, the written content is virtually unchanged). So it's highly doubtful that you will find the words "kuk sool" without the word "won" also included (and most likely the trademark emblem [™] will also accompany the three words of KSW), anywhere on the *official* website of WKSA. I recall that schoolowners were urged to *fix* this error if they had a website, but most of them probably decided it wasn't worth their time, so no telling if you can find this minor faux pas on an "officially recognized" school of WKSA. :dunno: I'm not exactly certain, but either the trademark expired (or is soon to expire) or maybe it was deemed invalid, and that's why all their stuff is now plastered with this: WKSA® Here's proof: and more proof:
post title = don't misunderstand Yeah, and it's not like it would've been difficult to navigate here, especially since I provided TWO different links (one to the start & one to the end).
I think this has the potential for a great thread. When it comes to the legal stuff........kuk sool, trademark, etc.....there is the long forgotten but very interesting thread "What are the problems with the Agreement". I read through the entire thing to refresh my memory a little. It gets very interesting around post #20, thanks to (mostly) Vegas Michelle's and unknown-KJN's research about kuk sool and the trademark issues. Just thought I bring this up, it might be helpful. OB
blah blah blah, hipidee hooplah! I'm curious who changed the history? I mean, didn't all Kuk Sool [ ] come from the same place...Korea...Hapkido...students leaving their master's schools and starting their own thing calling it Dell Taco instead of Taco bell...but it's still tacos and burritos... ..and when one of those students, takes an **** load of techniques and puts it into an organized fashion...and names it this, that or the other...then decides it's a great way to make money by mirroring US military officer ranking time in grade/time in service for the black belts ranks (because it's a good way to make more money)...and calls it whatever, then it's sacrilige for any of HIS students to leave and do their own thing...huh? Then they become leaches? Or they are wrong? That's some weird S#%t right there. That makes a nice long list of Leaches: In Sun Seo Sungkon Lim Dr. Kimm Marlin Sims Larry White ...and every other School owner who left...(which is about every other school owner) And since I'm ranting...I'll continue with this... Anyone ever notice how YOUNG the Korean Kuk Sool Masters are??? 5th, 6th & 7th Degrees in the 20s...! In the States the KSW Masters are in their 50s 60s and 70s...What the French?
1) Yes, if you left the WKSA, where you learned your KS, and are still teaching KS to the next generation, you are a knock-off. That goes with the franchise territory. Too bad the word "knock-off" has a bad connotation, but it is the correct label. But the truth is: knock-offs are often just as good in quality as the original...further, I would venture to say that there probably are some very good non-Won schools that can easily rival a good Won school. 2) DragonKarma should be allowed to post wherever he wishes. LOL. I find it hypocritical that others who thread-drift even more are calling him out on it. Lame. Further, mentioning a Won vs non-Won viewpoint is not really that much of a drift since clearly, people introduce themselves as Won or non-Won in the sticky in the first place! 3) When MAP crashed, many good post were lost. Much of them covered the whole registered vs trademark issue. The WKSA is actually following the Law with its labelling. Good for them. And it looks like KJN BIL is also doing the same for his schools...as he has also registered his logo and name with the US Patent office. 4) I don't know any WKSA 7th dahn Masters in their 20s...anywhere in the world. Who are you referring to? Point them out. Even IHS' own sons were nearly 40 or older before they hit 7th dahn...and they have been around KS ALL THEIR LIVES! It sounds like you are trying to point out an unfair promotions schedule between nationals but the evidence is against you. It has been pointed out in the fast-tracked Masters thread that some US and UK-based Masters promoted to 5th dahn in 16-20 years of training. Many of them were mentioned by name! So...if certain US/UK masters were promoted to 5th dahn in 20 years or less...I don't see it as odd that their Korean counterparts could also hit 5th dahn in 20 years time. So, if they started at age 4 or 5....by age 25, sure they could be 5th dahns too. Some people think there is an age 30 threshold that needs to be met for someone to reach 5th dahn...but people forget the clause that says IHS can make exceptions in promotions. IIRC, IHS has exercised this quite a few times...including posthumously promoting people 1 grade to honor their service to the art. Atleast people granted 5th dahn via fast-track learned the material and atleast TESTED...as opposed to posthumously promoted folks who neither learned the new material and/or completed testing for the higher grade. If you are saying that some Koreans LOOK young in age...where a 46 year old 7th dahn can pass for a 29 year old...I suppose this is more likely and plausible. 5) As far as the notion that DragonKarma mentions regarding those teaching Kuk Sool are actually inadvertently advertising for KSW...he is most likely correct. When the average person sees "Kuk Sool" and "Kuk Sool Won"...many won't make the differentiation and will think them synonymous. This is a common phenomena in which average people off the street DO NOT CARE to make the distinction and will let the ambiguity stand. Likewise, when I say I am an American, foreigners DO NOT CARE to make the distinctions between nations within the Americas. No...when people think "American"...they are often thinking about US citizens. Even though we share the Americas with Canada, Mexico, Brazil, Argentina, Chile, etc etc etc.
Good luck teaching ANYTHING to a corpse! :evil: But seriously, in the case of Bob Zefo, he had learned everything and even tested a few times, so it's not like he was handed anything on a silver platter. And I'll go out on a limb and assume similar circumstances for others who were *advanced in rank* posthumously, as I've also witnessed others who weren't promoted upon their demise, and rightly so, since they had not started the testing process. So it may appear as if the posthumous promotions are congratulatory in nature, but I see them as merely giving the dearly departed what they were due. I couldn't agree more. I was merely providing hints and subtle suggestions that posting on this new thread I started would be better suited, as opposed to discussing, at length, any issues concerning Won vs. non-Won on the checkin thread. Lame? I hardly think so. It's not like it was instigating a flame-war. Thanks, OB. And here's a link to that thread (starting at the suggested post #20): http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?p=34069979
The term 'knock-off' isn't actually listed in my copy of The Chambers [English] Dictionary. And I couldn't find it in The Cassell Dictionary of Slang either. Not that I'm unfamiliar with the term of course, but to state that it "...is the correct label..." for someone who simply continues to teach what they have been taught seems somewhat bizarre to me. Are each generation of college Professors also to be labeled 'knock-off merchants' when they move to another school or college, or indeed found an institution of their own? In any case, if we follow that line of reasoning, then surely the Founder of Kuk Sool Won must also be labeled a 'knock-off merchant' as he too took other people's knowledge and techniques. Although, I can concede that if other people use his numbering system and order of teaching the sets, when they are not still under him, you could - at a stretch perhaps - use the term. Which is one reason I usually don't teach the same as the WKSA structured way! In any case, a lot of techniques are universal and, as such, are 'owned' by no one. When they do look different, they are often simply variations on a theme.
The way I see it is that anyone using the name "Kuk Sool" in any form is trying to associate themselves with "Kuk Sool Won". If you are referring to the MA Kuk Sool then you are using Kuk Sa Nim's name because it is always going to be recognized as his. It is generally known that buisnesses try to emulate what works. And you can be more successful using something that someone else has made successful than trying to come up with something yourself. So the instructors that don't have something they can bring to the table that is unique must steal the goodwill developed by the original organization. That is the bottom line if they had ideas of thier own they would have already changed the name of thier now "Better Way".
They might be better learners than many here. They might even be better thinkers. That is a skewed POV and out of context. The original complaint was that Korean Masters were very young and something was amiss in regards to promotions in Korea. I pointed out that this was not the case as those Masters in Korea learned the material and tested and had the years. If unconventional promotions are really being considered, the age of Korean masters is not as big of an issue as posthumous promotions. And starting a 2-year testing cycle is not the same as finishing and completing all testing. First, University Professorships are not organized in a franchise. Second, all Uni Profs obtain letters of recommendation and references from their teachers to teach independently. So if a person sets up shop with no backing...yes, even in academia, we call them knock-off hacks. AFAIK, the people who left the Won didn't obtain expressed written permission or letters of recommendation to teach or start their own school from IHS....so the comparison also doesnt fly. Exactly right. Textbook example of legalized goodwill theft.
Back in the early 70's there was a Hapkido guy in the UK who used the term Kuk Sool simply to mean Korean Martial Art. That was at a time when the name Kuk Sool (with or without the attachment of 'Won') had not been heard of by most people, and the name 'In Hyuk Suh' by an even lesser number of people. Well done for taking the bait Michelle, I knew you wouldn't be able to resist!
"That was at a time when the name Kuk Sool (with or without the attachment of 'Won') had not been heard of by most people." Even now whenever anyone (including martial arts) ask what martial art I do, the conversation invariably goes like this. Them - So what do you do? Me - I do Kuk Sool Them - What? Me - It's kind of like hapkido. Them - *blank stare* Me - Korean Jujitsu. Them - ahhh ok Not an ideal explanation but it generally gets the point across.
thats an interesting point, because i vividly remember a tshirt on a master that said kuk sul on the front and "the third most popular martial art in the world" on the back. could be referencing other places besides north america or europe; could be poor statistics.
TO herbo_ksw: Depending on the *brand* of HKD, it's sometimes IDENTICAL to KSW. Once posthumous promotions were brought up, how can mentioning anything about them be "out of context"? While this may be true for 1st dahn testing, it's certainly not true for the higher dahn ranks. Even for second degree, let alone the upper levels being discussed (i.e. master rank), all the material must be learned before ever taking a single test, so the repetitive iterations of doing a test/grading are merely a *formality* along with serving time in grade nonsense, FWIW. Well, as far as you know, means that you're grasping at straw. The fact of the matter is that you don't know and although what I'm about to mention most likely wouldn't stand up in court (due to being hearsay), I've heard IHS state, on more than one occasion, that there are plenty of fish in the sea, meaning that there are enough people that will take MA lessons to sustain all of us, whether in or out of the Won. He added that there's no need to have *bad feelings* towards people who leave the WKSA in order to do their own thing. Admittedly, he was referring to people like He Young Kimm when he said it, but him being magnanimous shouldn't be thwarted just because you aren't korean and happened to abandon his organization a few decades later. Who knows? Maybe his perspective is different now than when he told me this, but he DID say it. So I take it as a "carte blanche" meaning that NO WRITTEN PERMISSION is needed for anyone who got out while the getting was good and didn't sign the franchise (signing that document would give WKSA a substantive right to exercise any legal action provided by said contract). So to all of you who bailed when you saw the red flags, you have GM IHS's blessing to make a living teaching MA however you see fit. Hi, Obe. You are entitled to see things however you wish, but for many people NOT associated with WKSA, the term kuk-sool is not specific to them (meaning the Suh/Seo clan). I agree that IHS has worked hard to make his organization stand out from the crowd and that it's by far the largest one carrying the banner of 국술, but alas, it is only one of several, regardless if others teaching kuk-sool were originally connected to IHS in some way.
Wait, didn't you admit you were a thief? You are a former WKSA guy who now teaches some material but arranged it differently from WKSA as to disguise it and even tried to justify this theft by saying some of the techniques are universal! HAHA. Who is grasping at straws? Saying people who left the Won have a carte blanche from IHS to teach is utter non-sense. Nice try justifying and rationalizing and trying to skew facts. And if indeed you heard IHS say something directly from his lips to your ears, its not hearsay. You keep using legal terms and when called out on it, you say you aren't a lawyer to rationalize your misstatements.
I, and several others have left the WKSA Pre- Franchising / or in the midst of it. I obtined recomendation to teach indepenently, obtained certification of rank, ( Pre-franchising ) I will continue to teach Kuk Sool teq. And forms I will not put a big red WKSA on my uniform, or swirrly little waves on my pants. I think I like the Knock-off phone I have more than the one my parents had.I think they still call them phones so they must be Knock-offs????
