Sun Taiji....Too Lazy to Tie Coat application

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by Subitai, Mar 22, 2016.

  1. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    We're at cross purposes.

    I can't find the video I want, but in this video is the person doing the drag turns his left hip away at 0.34 instead of using the leg to kick the other guy can be lead into this space.

    [ame=""]White Ape Invites Guest - Arm Drag with Seven Star Sweep - YouTube[/ame]

    He'll have to move his front foot to regain balance.

    No pulling, kicking or other manipulation required.

    I'm not back in class until Tuesday, so can't shoot a video until then.

    Edit. Here is a better example from 0.12.

    [ame=""]Tai chi secret movement - Uproot and fajin slow motion - YouTube[/ame]
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2016
  2. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    [ame=""]White Ape Invites Guest - Arm Drag with Seven Star Sweep - YouTube[/ame]

    In this clip, he is using "leg skill". By combining hand skill and leg skill together is always more efficiency. By using the BJJ point of view, to take your opponent down is not enough. You have to control him on the ground.

    Now we can see 3 different levels of finish:

    1. taiji - stand up lock, push away.
    2. wrestling - take down.
    3. BJJ - ground control.

    For this clip, IMO,

    1. It will be easier for him to attack his opponent's left leg since it's closer.
    2. It's better to wait for his opponent to step in on his right foot (shifts weight onto that right foot), he then attack his opponent's right leg after that.
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2016
  3. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Like I say we're at crossed purposes.

    I'm arguing that better structure pretty much has the other person uprooting themselves.
  4. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    What do you mean "at crossed purposes"?
  5. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    I think we're arguing two slightly different points.

    I'll try and get a video done.
  6. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I think you two are just basically referring to the two different ways to throw someone.

    1. You can throw them into an unbalance point (often done by vacating an unbalance point and allowing the opponent to fall into where you vacated).

    2. You can enter into an unbalance point and throw the opponent out of it.

    Simon, I believe your preference is to #2. IME, this consists mainly with moving into an unbalance point and using the vertical (up and down) to cause the opponent to lean off balance. Then it is a matter of turning to square up with you, lifting them off the ground and throwing them down. Leg skill with these types of throws would be to use your leg to lift the opponent up off the ground.

    YKW, I believe your preference is to #1. Basically you are getting the opponent to lean into an unbalance point so far that they fall over (you vacate the space and drag them into it). The leg skills with these types of take downs is foot sweeps, reaps, and trips/blocks/hooks (to prevent them from stepping).

    Leg skill can be used in both types of throws.
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2016
  7. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member


    I am liking the attention to details you include in your videos.

    From what I've seen, you appear to use a lot of the "partner set" type of training that goes sort of like: Partner A attacks, partner B counters, partner A counters the counter, partner B counters the counter to the counter. Partner B wins. And other variants of sequences with sometimes partner A winning.

    I think this is a very good way of training a lot of things.

    With that said, I have a question about the repulsing monkey video. Why is your training partner meeting your hand palm to palm?
  8. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    The size of his hands!

  9. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    IMO, you can teach your class in 2 different ways.

    1. This ... move of the form ... from the system ... can use used as ...
    2. To achieve ... goal, you can use the ... move of the form ... from the system ...

    I like the 2nd approach "goal first and path later" because there are more freedom. It's all up to whether you may think that

    - fighting is more important than style, or
    - style is more important than fighting.
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2016
  10. Subitai

    Subitai Valued Member

    Thanks Rebel...

    I'll try to answer that question. 1st about the partner training. I don't look at it that way. As I said, I prefer to counter.

    A saying in Tai chi is:
    "If you don't move, I don't move"
    = The saying belies it's true value. Meaning if you don't attack me, there will be no fight. More to the point, if you give me energy to use, i'll use it.

    the other side of the coin is:
    "If you move faster, I move just enough to follow you".
    = Unlike what most persons might think, the answer is not to move even faster.

    Last part is:
    "The way into danger is the way out"
    = I can tell you with allot of certainty that I can make this concept work effectively, when i'm doing push hands or straight up fighting someone. It's been an obsession of mine since I had an Epiphany back in 1998. Anyone whos touched hands with me will know it.

    * The reason I tell you those things is the one of the main principles of TC that most of us know about = the ability to FOLLOW. It is more profound than some people think.

    When I'm teaching a posture I always ask these 3 questions:

    1) In a perfect world where everything works they way you want it to, how do we apply this method most effectively?

    2) What is the most common way that your opponent will counter it?

    3) How do you deal with their counter?

    * Now keep in mind the concepts I wrote above as they relate to the questions

    For question # 1) "If you don't move, I don't move"
    #2) "If you move faster, I move just enough to follow you".
    #3) "The way into danger is the way out"

    I don't mean to be cryptic, that's just how my mind works. If you're a fellow TC player, then I know you'll get what i'm saying. Suffice to say that my teaching is not just about partner A does this and Partner B does that. There are concepts and reasons for each movement. More importantly they make sense and are not just Haphazard.

    Now to answer your question:
    * I gotta say that is very astute of you to notice that.

    = The easiest answer to that is because that's the direction I'm looking for in the demo.

    Assuming he's going to block me (not absorb my energy or get out of the way): He basically has four other choices: Up, down, left or right

    * If his right arm blocks my arm UP, I can still apply repulse: I just have to follow his energy and make a slight circle to extend his arm energy into my direction = thus making him extended enough to apply it.

    * If his right arm blocks my right arm to MY RIGHT: as I pointed out in the video, I would not force his energy back to repulse. That would be stupid, better to follow him and apply "Lazily tying coat" in the same direction. Thus, "the way out of danger is the way back in" :)

    * to the left and down = ect, ect.

    Regardless: I could go on and on, but basically whichever way my opponent decides to counter me I will follow it.

    The artsy fartsy answer that might blow some peoples minds is that you can often make people do something that you want, without them knowingly realize it.

    * If I take my finger nail and scratch it across your neck, you will almost involuntarily raise one of your hands to that spot and check to see if your bleeding.

    In the same way, if you know how to show someone your weapon or attack, you can get them to react in certain ways. It doesn't look like much but it's deceiving. Kinda like in billiards when your setting up your next shot.
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2016
  11. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    I like the way that you think. To think ahead of your opponent is very important in MA.

    However, besides what you have mentioned, there is another possibility. That is when you punch, your opponent tries to block you. Before his arm contacts your arm, you

    - pull your punch back (not all the way, just 1 - 2 inch),
    - let his block to miss your arm into the thin air,
    - after his arm has passed your punching path,
    - you then punch him back and continue the same path (but on the other side of his blocking arm).

    You pretty much fool your opponent.
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2016
  12. Subitai

    Subitai Valued Member

    Yes Jon, please keep in mind i'm also trying to share with people who might not have seen other variations let alone the original. So for the series i'm sticking with the simple fundamentals 1st.

    I believe very much in adding leg skill after you've learned the foundation. Both Hung Gar and Tai Chi that i've learned, bridge/connect with the legs allot. I will go further to say that actually some good leg skills already exists in the forms themselves. They just have to be practiced that way.
    For example, in "Slant flying" AKA Diagonal flying (also parting horse mane): you attack with the legs and upper body together.

    About the arm drag: From collegiate and high school wrestling those are easy.

    I prefer to follow energy given to attack instead. For example in this video skip to about 6min:45sec

    [ame=""]Tai Chi Chuan Split Lead Follow - YouTube[/ame]
  13. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I was going to say that the set up was very unlikely to happen but you skipped ahead with assuming opponent is blocking.

    What I was going to say was that your rear hand palm strike to his southpaw stance makes it very difficult for him to block. I would say that most of the time, your palm strike will penetrate right through the holes in his defense and smash him in the face. I see a hand to block as very unlikely. So him getting hit is more likely IME.

    The other option is for him to use head movement to evade and then maybe use an elbow strike to protect against you tracking/following. Again though, this is not blocking.

    So assuming the block actually happens against your palm strike, wouldn't it be more common to circle his left hand around and use it to parry your left hand palm strike over his shoulder?

    I still really like what you do in your videos. My point is that the set up isn't like scratching someone and getting a common reaction. I see your opponent's reactions to that rear hand palm strike as very uncommon. Very specific to a particular trained method. I doubt you will get that reaction out of American boxers, for example.

    I would like to see what comes after brush knee when you actually hit the opponent and get that reaction to feed into repulsing monkey rather than what I consider a contrived block. Alternatively, an actual counter to brush knee that makes sense, like a back fist to your face. I'm not saying the counter negates brush knee. I'm saying something like a back fist (or upper cut) makes sense because as you lower their left hand that feeds into bringing the hips forward with an uppercut or vertical back fist.

    As for repulsing monkey application, I learned something completely different. However, in no way does that take away from liking your video application for repulsing monkey. It is the set up I'm wondering about.
  14. Subitai

    Subitai Valued Member

    Oh the possibilities...they really do get in the way don't they? :)

    Well depends on what we're talking about doesn't it? Again, i've said many times already that this thread is about Traditional Sun Style and my attempt at getting some of the core things that I learned out there. Namely, one of the versions that I learned to use repulse.

    For people who train to square up and also USE their bridges...I'd say it's very possible for the right hand to block. For me it's easy.

    Of course you can dodge or basically "don't be there". As you said, you can also move the head. That is correct, I wouldn't argue that you couldn't. Only that if your hand is bound or your arm is being controlled so that your cannot move so easy, then blocking becomes more of a choice.

    When I say blocking, I never said you couldn't move your feet however...all good kung fu should have footwork combined. In fact in this video ( although it's not Tai Chi specific) shows some of what i'm talking about: [ame=""]Hung Gar Application Concepts 6 - YouTube[/ame]

    The whole palm to block thing that I was alluding to was really more about the demonstration process for the video. Or it's something that I use more in a push hands scenario when people are not hell bent on killing each other. I'm talking about meeting my palm straight on. In a park, pushing with strangers who don't know you...yeah I can get people to give me that energy. You'd be surprised.

    But the other directions for block are totally functional, for fighting. It doesn't matter to me, repulse will still work if my opponent gives me the energy i'm looking for.

    By the way, i'd love to see how you were taught to use repulse ala Sun.
  15. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Yes it was the footwork that I was looking at with that block. If you use footwork like in your above video (your left foot forward, their left foot forward), then the rear hand block makes sense. In fact that is basically the Philly Shell in boxing.

    When you match your left foot forward to their right foot forward, the block doesn't make a lot of sense. I would say more often you get smashed like 36 seconds in the following video:

    [ame=""]Bas Rutten Highlights - YouTube[/ame]

    If you are asking how I was taught repulse monkey... not really different as the movements are generic. For application, more specifically, as a finger jab to the throat (striking with the middle and ring finger tips) followed by a palm strike to the collarbone. The movements are generic though and could be incorporated in many different techniques.
  16. Subitai

    Subitai Valued Member

    Yes, raising finger jab is what i'd use more on the inside line.

    I gotta say though, i 'm not so down with the example you gave. By that I mean at 36sec. No reflection on Bas as I think he's a badass. But that's just a strike from a distance with no bridge at all. He just stepped in and struck. Not the same thing.

    When the guy in red put his right foot was more forward and closer to Bas's Left foot. Thus it's southpaw facing orthodox. Again though, not even an arm bridge, instead it was the open hand version of the ol' 1 - 2.
  17. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Yeah, inside line. I figure better things to do on the outside line. Brush knee is better on the outside line. IME.

    I won't argue that they are not the same. I am saying that the angle of attack is the same, whether there is a bridge or not.

    Note: My personal feeling about bridges is that straight in with no bridge is the least complex form of bridge training. It isn't up to the attacker to bridge, the attacker doesn't bridge, but forces the opponent to bridge to defend against the straight in attack. When they defend with a bridge, then destroy their bridge. Trying to get around bridge just feeds into the strengths of those better than me.
  18. Subitai

    Subitai Valued Member

    Continuing on: someone had asked for "Fair Maiden Weaves" are some details:

    [ame=""]Sun Tai Chi Application Fair Maiden Weaves - YouTube[/ame]

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