Sun Style Taijiquan Question

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by Xue Sheng, Dec 6, 2017.

  1. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

    I'm a long time Yang guy, who trained Chen for a bit but currently I dabble in Sun Style.

    I have been looking around the web at the Traditional Long form and I have noticed something, they are not all the same. Some have a jump kick and some do not. Now I have noticed it appears that the jump kick folks are all linked to Li Deyin and the non-jump kick folks appear to be linked to Madame Sun. But I have also noticed something else that may explain the difference. Those doing the jump kick are younger and those not doing the jump kick are older.

    I am wondering if, traditionally, coming from Sun Lutang if there is or is not a Jump kick?
  2. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Hmm, do you have SLT's tai chi book? As to what Sun practiced and taught himself, that's as good a source as any I would think, I imagine whatever is in there can stand as his definitive version. I have it somewhere, I can have a look if you don't have a copy just a matter of digging it out of a box.

    Another way to look at it is from the source of his form which was Wu-Hao style tai chi.
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  3. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

    Good ideas, thanks, I do have his book as well as his daughters, I should look there.

    And I know his Taiji comes from Wu-Hao, and there is a fast form in my flavor of Yang (from Tung Ying Cheih) that also has some Wu-Hao in it.

  4. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    Yep,there is a jump kick in both Hao and Sun.

    Howe'er,it's no secret that Sun forms vary and no surprise that Madame Sun's current version has followed the modern TC trend of "easier".

    Sun? I'll have to write our Tung elders and report this!

    BTW,have you ever seen Tung's Wu performed? I've only seen a few pictures.
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  5. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside


    Well.... I'm only dabbling in no need to bring in Tung elders......hey...wait a minute....then how do YOU know the answer about Sun style.... maybe I better talk to the Tung elders about this :D

    No I have not seen Tung's Wu performance, or at least I don't think I have..... is this one of the fast forms? If it is I do it, if it isn't I have not seen it

    My shifu refers to things like this, Long form, Yang fast form, Tung fast form, shot dao form, etc. I do know the Tung fast form is a combination of Yang and Wu/Hao.
  6. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    Mind thy place,nephew.As far as you're concerned I'm an elder.I was the thumb student of a disciple of Ying-ch'ieh hisself.:p

    I know about such things due to my penchant for history and looking at everyone else's stuff I can.My home library hasn't kept up for the last 20 years or so but it still ain't a bad selection.If only I could read my old books that are in Chinese.

    There are two fast forms of Tung creation. No idea what the Yang fast form is,unless it's just what they named one of the two fast forms they created.Never heard that Ying-ch'ieh learned a fast form from Yang,C-f. The Wu form is their "secret" teaching,not everyone gets it.I know Kai-ying only teaches it to those who have been with him for "a long time"-whatever that means,exactly.
  7. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

    As am I... My shifu also a student of Tung Ying Chieh and help Tung Hu Ling open a school in Thailand :p

    As the story goes, the first fast form came from discussions between Yang Chengfu and Tung Ying Chieh. They had worked out the majority of the details but not started on the physical form. Then Yang Chengfu died. Tung Ying Chieh went on to develop the foem and referred to it as the Yang Fast form since it came from discussions with his Shifu. The second form came later and is a combination of Yang and Wu/Hao.
  8. Subitai

    Subitai Valued Member

    I can tell you guys from 1st hand experience meeting my Si Gung Sun Jianyun and training in Sun Style a story about that jump kick.

    Back in 98' I was there with my sifu and we were in a park practicing Sun taiji. Then a young woman came to visit our group (she had some people escorting her in for an introduction) and there was a buzz about the crowd in chatting.

    I asked my sifu whats going on? He said that the young woman had just recently won a Wushu Taiji Competition and the young lady had won with her Sun Style. One of her perks for winning was to meet SJY.

    SJY was curious to see her form and we all watched. As soon as she saw the Jump Kick she became visibly upset.
    She then explained to the officials that when she was consulted for her input as the creation of a Sun Style Compulsory form....she was adamant that NO JUMP KICK be placed in the form. That was NOT her fathers kung fu.

    I was there, when she was visibly upset and she explained to all of of us about that Jump Kick.

    You guys can take that for what it is. What I know from being a part of her lineage is...there is No Jump kick in the traditional Sun Taiji Form.
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  9. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

    Thank You. I have been very curious about this because like I said originally, I see the jump kick in people who seem to be linked to Li Deyin, but I do not see it in what comes from those linked directly to the Sun family. But I was not sure because all those doing the jump kick also appear to be younger. But after checking Sun Lutang's and SJY's books I did not see a jump kick there either. And to be honest, jump kicks do not generally make a whole lot of since to me, that is unless you are 100% sure of your target and even then you are with no root while in the air. Looking at old sills of Sun Lutang it looks to me as if he was most definitely fighter and looking at those the jump kick just made no sense to me, but not having a whole lot of Sun style experience I had no idea so I asked....again thanks. I was hoping to hear something from the Sun family on this.

    I have trained Yang for many years and there are no jump kicks I also trained Chen for a bit and there was one very old form that had one jump kick. A jump kick is just not something you see in taijiquan, I also never came across on in Bagua either, but then I never did all that much bagua. And I did train xingyiquan 5 elements and there is no jump kick there either, there may be one in 12 animals of Xingyi, but since I do not do 12 animals I cannot be sure. But Sun style comes from 3 styles that do not seem to be big on Jump

    Another reason for my question: My first sifu was directly out of a Chinese physical fitness college and he was the first person that I trained Xingyiquan with. I had been reading about Xingyiquan for 18 years and wanted to learn it and he was the first person I came across that said he knew it. I was never so disappointed in a form than I was in the Xingyi he taught. None of it seemed to match with what I had been reading. I later had a chance to try it again with a more traditionally trained Sifu and it was everything I thought it was supposed to be. That is when I realized what my first sifu taught was all competition wushu (modern wushu) stuff which is VERY different from the traditional stuff. Looking at these differences in Sun style I was wondering if this was not the same case as my xingyi experience
  10. Subitai

    Subitai Valued Member

    You story is interesting...

    As for your last paragraph and final sentence, I could only say that "I think your right". I don't mean that to completely BASH wushu. I've met some amazing people that just trained in straight up wushu and I thought they were good martial artists. Most wushu (forms) people are not fighters IMO, ( of course) .

    But I just wanted to say that some people are just TOUGH SONS of B!$^&'s. I know in my heart that people like that could fight well no matter what style they learned. :)
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  11. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

    Agreed, I know one, he runs a school that teaches competition wushu, he is amazing to watch do forms, his athleticism is awe inspiring.... but he is one heck of a good fighter too. I also had a Sanda (police version) Sifu who was, and is, the toughest guy I know...with or without Sanda.
  12. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    :oops:Ooop! I done fergot we wuz cuzzins!
    Ah,ok.I knew Yang had worked with him on the first one,but that clarifies the names.Thanks.
    I stand corrected,I was probably thinking of that short comp form.

    I do wonder,as he learned from Hao, if it possibly existed in earlier versions.Over the years I've read that Sun's form has changed a little over time,and supposedly some earlier versions had more "visible" Pa Kua.Supposedly.There is also the huge movement for standardization-witness the history (and politics) of Wu,C-c system and Yang,C-f system.

    Fought may TKD guys?
    Jump kicks appear in Chen,Wu/Li/Hao,and some pre-Yang,Cheng-fu Yang.In other words,in older forms.

    There are jump kicks and flying knees in some HI animal forms.
  13. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

    Use to be a TKD guy, pre-Olympic and I was a Japanese Jujutsu guy before that. Don't forget...I'm old :) Also did a bit of Changquan in my early 30s, and I even used jump kicks. But I have felt, for a long time, that unless you were certain of your target, that is was a dangerous move. Figure that out after a guy threw on at me, missed and a lucky shot of mine hit him in mid-air.

    Never saw a jump kick in Wu or Hao. Chen and Zhaobao yes and never paid much attention to Li. As for Pre-Yang Chengfu, I see forms claiming to be Yang pre-Yang Chengfu and I know such forms exist. However I have yet to see one that convinces me that it is actually legitimate.

    I never "officially" did any of the Xingyi animal forms other than tiger. Like I said above my first shifu for Xingyi was a Performance Wushu guy and I always question his forms. Some were traditional wushu, that he learned prior to the Wushu college, those after were performance. He showed me Dragon and it was rather acrobatic, never saw it done like that in any other "traditional" form of dragon I have seen. So I tend to be skeptical about a lot of jump kicks in Xingyiquan, but like I said, I never learned them so I would not know.
  14. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    Yeah,I started in '76.

    I'm not arguing they're a higher risk technique.Not my cup o' tea.But they sure can wreak havoc.

    Those kicks are there.

    Wu,Yu-Hsiang/Li,I-yu/Hao,Hao Wei-jen is line of descent.I didn't mean Chee Soo's questionable Li TC.

    While it has become quite "in" to claim original TC,Chang,San-feng TC,Old Yang ,Old Wu ,Old Socks ,there are some.Wang,Yen-nien's TC came from Chiang,Ching-ling's and is NOT a Yang,C-f form.I had a student who had practiced it for 8 years starting when he was 14.It looks....older,including follow steps and elevation changes.B.K.Frantzis has a Yang,Chien-hou system.And even though they were written out by the Cheng-fu faction do you think none of Shao-hou's disciples taught anyone?And it's fair to say that whatever the changes he made (and he did) Kuo,Lien-ying's stuff was pre Cheng-fu. Those are just some examples.

    Of course I've seen some stuff the claims for which seemed rather......junk.

    Unfortunately I never got to learn Hsing I-the one person in town didn't teach guys.As she didn't get any serious female students she didn't teach women,either! But I do have various trad manuals including some of the older ones in Chinese and they do have those kicks/knees,but they appear about as often as in TC-rarely.
  15. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

    Started TKD the same year, Jujutsu I believe was 1972 or 73

    Oh I have no doubt they are out there, just have not seen on yet that I could say beyond any doubt was real. As for Shaohou, the current Yang family was saying there were no students of his teaching and that his branch of the family died off.... funny thing that, my shifu, who grew up in Hong Kong knew where they were. A few years back the current Yang family folks had to admit Shaohou had family alive and well and living in Hong Kong

    There are knee strikes in 5 elements as well as a few kicks, not all are obvious when you see the form. However there are no jump kicks 5 elements, at least not in the flavors I have trained. As for the 12 animals I know my first shifu had at least one in dragon, however I could no tell you if it was traditional or modern wushu, Much of my first shifu's stuff was modern wushu, some, like his old style Chen form, where traditional, but much of his stuff was not
  16. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    The political garbage by the Cheng-fu faction after the death of his older brother is really disgusting.
    Lies,lies,more lies.

    I've never seen any jump kicks/knees in any HI 5 Elements.Only in animals. I think Paul Kuo does some of those knees in R.W.Smith's "Hsing I" in the animal section.
  17. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

    Yang politics began to pickup after Yang Shaohou's death and got nothing but worse as time went on in the yang family. Theer was a period of time where Yang Zhen Duo was claiming his teacher was his father too. However if yuo do the math he was at best 10 when his father died. He eventually admitted his main teacher was his older brother Yang Shou Zhong.

    Also there are knee strikes, not jumping knee strikes, just knee strikes in Xingyi 5 elements. Just thought I should clarify what I was previously saying
  18. Taoquan

    Taoquan Valued Member

    Greetings Xue Sheng,

    To answer your question;
    No there is no Jump Kick in Sun Lu Tang's Original Tai chi Form. Even the Form Madam Sun performs here;

    Is not Sun Lu Tang's original form, this is the easier form that was taught to the general public for Health and general practice. This is the Form that Madam Sun taught most people that came to practice with her. The Traditional Form is much harder with lower stances and was taught only to Disciples. So many that went over to learn from Madam Sun learned the above form and since then many variations and derivations have taken place.
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