Suggestions on a style to begin training.

Discussion in 'Health and Fitness' started by AshlandAether, Sep 8, 2014.

  1. PlumPunch

    PlumPunch New Member

    I would tend agree with Vegas. Weakness is provocative.

    Once in a bar a drunk guy rather assertively forced himself into my personal area. I squared up on him, looked him in the eyes, and said something to the effect of "Excuse me, you're in my area."

    Words were firm but polite, body language strong but not aggressive. Had I sulked away things would have escalated. Same knucklehead ended up getting kicked out for messing with someone else.

    Best advice, don't hang out in bars. But then again, I can be a bit of a bore.
     
  2. Vegas

    Vegas New Member

    _________________

    Allow me to respectfully acknowledge your '2 cents'...but, again, this is 'time and experience tested'...and not speculation.

    Your comments do service the purpose of drawing out greater details as t the 'how' and 'why' of the given circumstances. People need to understand that the circumstances of a confrontation (or a fight) are just like any/all martial arts training...not all circumstances require the same response.

    That being said...YES...98% or so of situations are resolved by being 'firm and confident' and by being 'confident' in addressing the situation. The sheer abundance of my time growing up in poverty, being in 'not the best neighborhoods' as a matter of 'life' in general, going out to neighborhood bars in factory/lower income demographic areas 5-7 nights a week because there was nothing else to do (fyi, don't drink alcohol, cuss or do drugs and never have). But in that world of drug dealers and low-brain-cell-activity drunks, etc by sheer volume and frequency...fights happen, even when you don't want them to (the other(s) do!).

    A core philosophy of mine is that 'Violence does not resolve anything' because the issue that existed prior to the physical action still exists afterwards. But, if confronted with the violent actions of another, good people are entitled to defend themselves or others that are incapable of defending themselves from that 'wrongful action' and then calmer heads prevail. But simply put, many people cannot be reasoned with when drunk or highly emotional (or both) or when they want something they believe they are capable of taking...and that is why/when a person must defend themselves or others from that 'irrational action' or become the victims.

    The majority of people who train in martial arts (surprisingly) have never been in an actual bar/street fight...the majority of the skills people train in...will never be used in a bar/street fight. That being said, because situations are usually never the way a person plays them out in their mind...martial artists train to be able to 'instinctively react' to the inappropriate physical actions of others.

    i.e. In most fights, a simple block and 'lock' or action that incapacitates the attacker (knocks the wind out of them or causes 'cognitive re-calibration') is a high 90+% of the actions needed to put a stop to the action.
    So, BASICS are the key...instinctive, solid and quick.

    The biggest problem i have with your bar fight resolution is the potential at which the fight could escalate to (knife, gun, or gang beating). The other factor that doesn't seem to be considered are the legal repercussions.

    1) Yes, all fights have the possibility of a knife/gun becoming involved. That is, hopefully, what you train for in your self defense: yes, I've had to deal with those. Gang-beating...I think you meant Gang-fights, otherwise you are assuming the mindset of losing the fight before its begun as you've stated it, but perhaps it is better stated as having to fight multiple opponents: yes this can and does happen. In the instance of a 'real' fight...it is fairly common that someone else will 'want to get involved', be that a boyfriend/girlfriend or friends in general...while that is not always the case, it something that should be considered at all times. i.e. Be careful of your positioning (tables/walls or friends/co-workers at your back, not anonymous crowd members), be quick (don't believe an 'encounter' should ever last longer than a few seconds per person involved) and 'stay up' (sorry ufc/mma ground grapplers) so you can defend against other attackers who may (and commonly do) choose to use a boot, bottle, knife, chair, etc against you. Quick resolutions are the best way to prevent 'others' from joining in: yes, I have dealt with several opponents (in real life)...just part of being a bar regular (especially in 'not good' areas) and being bar security in those bars/areas.

    2) Legal repercussions were the Main Reason, for my original post.
    The Bas Rutten suggestion was what I was endorsing as a 'nearby' option for the person who wanted to learn to protect himself, had lost all bar fights previously and had limited/no transportation available...except that if you watch the video that was posted in this 'thread' by (someone?) it is a perfect example of what Bas Rutten recommends/teaches. However, despite all the 'very similar' experience I have experienced.
    *I do NOT endorse causing 'permanent harm' or 'severely damaging' anyone...i.e. when Bas takes control over the person with a knife, he then demonstrates stabbing them with their own knife. Not Good. A 'good person' only remains good by 'not' lowering themselves to the 'base' (not good guy) behavior of their opponents. Just because they raise their voice, you shouldn't, just because they use foul language, you don't need to, just because they insult you, doesn't make it okay to hurt them...but if they make a threatening move/make a physical action with intent to harm you or others...'drop them' (as in: end it quickly and decisively)...which can be done with block and lock/pinning them actions, etc...in my many, many situations I have not found the need to do Bas Rutten or 'Roadhouse' damage (It's a movie people) in order to put an end to the aggression.
    In fact, I advise people that 'breaking bones and causing permanent damage is unnecessary in 99.99999% of any instances and will only result in you being more likely to be sued, which means they will cost you money in legal fees if not also take your life savings, home/car, etc.'

    Violence should always be the last option...but if it is going to happen, Win!
     
  3. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    I gurantee Bas will be teaching 99% MMA and will only touch on the bar stuff peripherally
     
  4. Kave

    Kave Lunatic

    Yup, the video I posted was a little tongue-in-cheek. I definitely do recommend training with Bas because he was a great fighter, and I have heard he is a good coach. If you search YouTube with the keywords "bas rutten elite mma" then you will see a number of videos showing the training at his gym.

    Examples:
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xjw6Q08XtXY&list=UUU-QBS70OpEzvhCzajjOGqg"]Fight Team Training.mov - YouTube[/ame]
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8scDs6_PYg"]Bas Rutten's Elite MMA Fight Team Training 4 - YouTube[/ame]
     
  5. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    i don't understand this, you don't drink or do drugs, yet you went out 5-7 nights a week to bars. what did you do at the bars? drink pop? play pool?

    describe some of the altercations you've been in. if you don't cuss, then why are you getting in fights? what are the reasons people have given you when "fights happen"?

    i'm just wondering how that works. i grew up poor too and went to sketchy bars; but, i curse, drink and do drugs. matter of fact, my favorite bar on this planet happens to be amidst three dilapidated factories, which when i'm visiting my parents without my family, always go back to--nothing like the home stomping grounds, frankly.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2014
  6. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    let us know how your trial lessons go. price and proximity are always concerns, especially if, as you've stated, you don't have a car. i looked a little into the aikido place. i don't know anything about it other than, per the website, it's affiliated with the usaf--which, i think, is a good sign for any aikido dojo in the usa.

    per a previous poster, judo is always a good option.
     
  7. rne02

    rne02 Valued Member

    Meaning they will underestimate you even more, lulling them into a false sense of security, increasing your chances of success when you launch your pre-emptive attack.

    Also, having apologised and them continuing their aggressive manner, just adds more evidence to your claim of self defence afterwards when you give a statement to the Police.

    Just like to offer that up as a different way/option of looking at the same situation.
     
  8. Xanth

    Xanth Valued Member

    If you looking in the LA area, there are plenty of Kuk Sool Won schools to be found:

    http://www.kuksoolwon.com/site/schools

    There are those who do not like this style, and those who love it...worth giving a look if you are in the area and shopping...
     
  9. Vegas

    Vegas New Member

    Giovanni,

    Interesting..."not a martial artist" in your profile...but, you are HERE(?). I assume that quandary is due to you are 'hoping' to become a martial artist at some point, otherwise, why are you here?

    To answer your question(s), simply.

    i don't understand this, you don't drink or do drugs, yet you went out 5-7 nights a week to bars. what did you do at the bars? drink pop? play pool?
    ***Yes, exactly that...and everything else people do: talk, joke, dance, play games (darts, pool, etc). The alternative would be to have bars/nightclubs with signs outside saying something to the effect of 'If your friends don't drink, they may not enter with you. Check your sober friends at the door and only socialize with them elsewhere.' *I know, many drinkers (especially hard/power drinkers) have a hard time understanding how people can have a 'good time' without drinking. In fact, I was usually the central figure in the crowd and where my group of friends went was 'were the party was' each night. Good times don't have to be 'drunken' good times.

    describe some of the altercations you've been in.
    ***Don't know that I need to do that...LOL...not in great detail, anyway.
    ***In general, Nightclubs/Bars, typically...
    *someone is hitting on (too aggressively forcing themself on) a female friend who has tried 'a few times' to politely get him to go away/leave her alone. You start with the polite and 'non-cussing' conversation style to 'schmooze' him into moving on...but commonly, drunk and/or particularly mentally unbalanced people don't like being told 'no'...no matter how politely you say it.
    *someone has actually 'hit' a woman in the bar (domestic abuse guy, out in public)...has to be told/stopped ..."what happens at home, I have no control over...but, you don't get to hit on a woman around me."
    *people (group of guys) being 'too nasty' and aggressive towards my girlfriend and her friend as I am walking them to their car (outside in the parking lot).
    *Best friend walked a 'passed out drunk' (blacked out) young lady to her car...bar owners are our friends (one an ex-cop) and asked us if we would escort her out to her car to sleep it off (we kept the car keys, so no drunk driving ...many years before anti-drunk driving was so popular)...friend was outside with her, I was inside...when a group of 5 guys who had been hitting on her earlier insisted on taking her home...and didn't like my friend saying 'no'...as I stepped outside, they sucker-punched him and the fight began.
    *Sorry...too many stories...but, as another post stated...you want to avoid bar fights, don't go to bars (but admitted he's been called boring).

    if you don't cuss, then why are you getting in fights?
    ***As shown above, you don't have to 'cuss' or 'swear' at people to get into fights. (smiling) In fact, in some cases I have been 'thanked' as weird as it was: Saying "Thanks" because it was the politest anyone has ever been when ejecting/throwing/escorting him out of the bar.
    ***If you recall, I mentioned I have been the customer, bar owner friend and hired security...and btw, your more 'elite' security learn to NOT use foul language and to 'talk' most issues away...but by sheer volume, you WILL have to deal with issues as not everyone likes being told 'no' when they 'really' want to do something.

    what are the reasons people have given you when "fights happen"?
    ***LOL, people don't give reasons 99% of the time...they're sorta glaringly obvious.
    -Enters (tries to enter) the VIP area of a club 3 times=they gotta go.
    -Grabs a girls arm and won't let her walk away.
    -Holding a girl by the back of her neck as they are leaving the bar at closing.
    -Fight breaks out, who knows why, and you gotta stop them...you don't have a chat 1st.
    -Guy upset because you're dancing with a girl "he bought a drink for 2 hours ago" and takes a swing at you...we'll call that 'frustrated drunk' reasoning.
    -Other ethnic group shows up at the 'late night restaurant' en masse...and someone in their group picks a fight with a smaller member of the 'different' ethnic group. (a few of those) Can pick/fill-in-the-blanks of any ethnicity vs another 'in general', usually the same groups where I grew up.
    -Geez...too many more...enough for now?


    *****REPLY TO PLUMPUNCH******
    Yes, that is a perfect example of how 'most' possible fights are avoided...and how the 'other guy' he got in a fight with later should have carried himself. (They are looking for a fight, unfortunately some people have that 'goal' when they go out...if they don't 'hook up' instead)


    Have a great day, folks.
     
  10. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    it's a quandary. not a martial artist and yet i'm here.

    thanks for your explanation. have you ever seen the movie "roadhouse"?

    i still curse, drink and do drugs, but i do much less of it, so i don't find myself at bars like i used to. even when i was into partying all the time i only went out 3-4 nights a week. now, if i'm lucky i have 1-2 drinks a month and i find myself at an actual bar like twice a year.
     
  11. Vegas

    Vegas New Member

    :) Really should look into the 'becoming a martial artist' thing...depending on the style and the instruction...it's can be fun, good/great exercise and endlessly mentally fascinating with all the minutia of intricacies which only become more fascinating as you understand them more and more.

    Yes, I have seen Roadhouse...many-many times.
    It is 'very' reminiscent of my 'regular bar' back home when I was much younger..except for the over-dramatized and Hollywood-exaggerated behaviors...if that's what you're familiar with, you don't know it isn't common everywhere.

    I actually use the film as an example for people who aren't 'Martial Arts' or 'Bar fighting' experienced as examples of what you CAN NOT do in 'real life' scenarios.

    Much of the fighting, and philosophy is awesome...but, I chastise against using the 'excessive' violence prevalent throughout the film. Specifically: "You can't DO THAT in Real Life! In the movie they are regularly breaking arms and busting kneecaps, etc. In real life, that can get them 'paid' by YOU as they will sue to take your car, your home, your life savings and attach your income for the rest of your life. You CAN'T Do That...in real life."

    Beyond that, I got a great chance to speak with Patrick Swayze, years ago, and we discussed the Dirty Dancing and Roadhouse movies...more than any others. He said he has always been shocked by how popular the Dirty Dancing film ended up becoming and how much people really embraced it. He was such a pleasant and ordinary guy we 'just chatted' for a bit. (Perk of being in Vegas and working in an area dealing with the mega-wealthy and celebrity circles.)
     
  12. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    my tag line is just facetious. i do submission grappling currently (bjj, judo, no-gi), and i compete in bjj tournaments. i've also got a black belt in hapkido and have dabbled in some other styles--mostly aikido. i also occasionally box, although not as much as i'd like.

    thanks for all your responses based on your experience! lots to think about!
     
  13. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    right boot...

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kn96jR5Geyk"]yer too stupid to have a good time - YouTube[/ame]
     
  14. Vegas

    Vegas New Member

    Giovanni...being so covert! :)

    Excellent...Hapkido is cool, did some for about a year, also amateur boxed for less than 2 years when I was early 20-ish.

    Yeah, strangely, I found the Roadhouse 'rules' to be 'exactly' in line with my time/experience tested philosophies...minus the aforementioned 'excessive' violence points...of course, elevated for Hollywood-necessary dramatics.

    If people haven't lived that kind of experience, it's hard to understand...but it's also nice when you are in the 'more grown up' and 'less violent' world too. :-D

    Now, I've been developing my 'Kung Fu' experience....specifically Wushu...which is great for the cardio/fitness and flexibility...especially since I was 'not working out/training' for a long time (got 'more professional' and started having the kids/family lifestyle!).
     
  15. FusionMMA

    FusionMMA New Member

    Fighting at bars is for children and not self-defense.....

    You can almost always back down some drunk idiot at a bar, though I won't go out of my to do so every time. If someone has a problem like I'm in their way or they are drunk and think I was "mean mugging" (lol) then I could care less, I'll move a step over or just turn around, hell I'll buy a guy a drink. But if it's an actual bully, I'll just tell them to **** off! Put your hand on me and I'll beat you down, then have the cops arrest you.

    NOTE: I don't hang out at trashy bars, so I don't usually have to worry if everyone's friend is jumping in lol. I think the key is knowing your surroundings and also using common sense. I'm pretty sure the places I do go, everyone is always friendly, people would be more likely to tell their drunk friend to stop annoying people lol.
     
  16. FusionMMA

    FusionMMA New Member

    Back to the point of this thread, I honestly would go with Judo or BJJ. Especially in close quarters, it's so easy to grab onto people (or easy for them to grab you when you are trying to hit them). The ability to throw and trip people is often under-rated for self-defense, trip and kick! There are also so many standing submissions, remember a standing Kimura or wrist lock doesn't have to be a tap out or pain move, just snap it and move along.

    As far as close quarters go I don't believe strikes work very well at all, I have a black belt in Kempo but started doing BJJ and Muay Thai instead awhile back. I have had one Vale Tudo match and a few mixed rules fights. I once threw a hard downwards elbow on someone taking me down...and they finished the takedown no problem lol. In close quarters, like a bar, staying standing is key and grappling gives you that ability. Just my two cents!
     

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