Success in flexibility after being totally inflexible

Discussion in 'Health and Fitness' started by Devildog2930, Nov 10, 2013.

  1. Albi Dacdil

    Albi Dacdil Valued Member

    Thank you very much for the info.
     
  2. pseudo

    pseudo Padawan

    So I'm a little confused, are you advocating stretching methods used in Jean-Claude Van Damme's 1989 Movie Kickboxer with the ropes and the pulleys and the massive amount of Pain and Discomfort?

    Okay but I am Interested in what your saying Van Zandt because I want to improve my flexibility but I'm having a hard time understanding the reasoning why adding weights means the differences between keeping your flexibility and having it recess to nothing. To me the only difference would be at what speed or how long it takes an individual to reach his goals no? Whatever stretching method you use you are still targeting the same connective tissue and tendons no? I agree that weights would increase at what speed you achieve flexibility but I dont understand why one method would give you lasting results over the other. Is it because one method you are damaging the tissue and allowing the body to rebuilt it just like Muscles over just stretching the tissue and have it shrink back to normal?

    I donno just having a hard time getting my head around the concept, maybe explain it in simpler terms for a simpler man?
     
  3. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    No. I'm saying isometric stretches (see also: PNF) are more effective than traditional "relaxed" or "static" stretches. I'm also saying isometric stretches can be made even more effective if you combine it with weight training, directly and indirectly.

    Directly = holding a weight (barbell, dumbbell, kettlebell, your gran) while doing isometric stretches.

    Indirectly = regular weight lifting with heavy weights and low reps in movements that closely resemble splits (squats, sumo squats, Bulgarian split-squat, etc).

    Traditional stretches (i.e. stretch as far as you can and hold it) work for children because they are at an age when it is possible to manipulate the length of connective tissues. These changes are more or less permanent (there will be some decrease over time), which is why ex-gymnasts and dancers can quite often display a large ROM even after a long layoff.

    Traditional stretches are pointless for adults (except in cases of pathogical tightness where patients have experienced some extreme musculo-skeletal trauma e.g. car crash or sports injury) because it is not possible to achieve this same manipulation of connective tissues. Adult physiology is simply different to that of a child. Even in physical therapy, traditional stretches are only a temporary measure to help restore 'normal' range of movement so the patient can move on to building strength.

    While you may experience some increase in ROM from traditional stretches, anything beyond your limit of strength relies on the elasticity of your connective tissues (a process called 'tissue creep'). This natural elasticity will decline over time as the ratio of elastin-collagen in your tissues changes more toward collagen. Your ability to develop and maintain flexibility this way will inevitably decline. This explains why adults who used traditional stretches to achieve flexibility often 'lose it' as they hit their late 40s/early 50s, which gives rise to the myth that old people cannot be flexible.

    You can test your limit of strength by trying to slide out into a side split without using your hands. How far you can go is how flexible you truly are. (Often, adults who use traditional stretches can sit on the floor and gradually open their legs further and further but cannot slide down into a split "cold".)

    Isometrics work better because they make you stronger through a gradually increasing range of motion. Your body feels safer as it feels itself getting stronger. The stronger you can get, the safer your body feels and the more flexible you can be. But there is a limit to how much strength can be gained through isometrics alone. The body hits a plateau after about 6-8 weeks, so introducing a barbell or dumbbell with gradually increasing weight lets you avoid this stagnation.

    Did that clear it up any better? Don't be afraid to say no. :)
     
  4. Madao13

    Madao13 Valued Member

    @Van Zandt

    Although traditional stretches don't help the flexibility of an adult that much, do they still have their use for a person that engages in physical activities like martial arts and lifting weights?
    You said that they are useful to people with pathological tightness and in another thread you said that they promote sleep.

    Do you use them?
     
  5. pseudo

    pseudo Padawan

    It dose and it doesn't. So lets use a goal of mine that iv been working on for a few months, maybe that will help put it into perspective. So a bit embarrassing but I have been trying to touch my toes, something as far as I can remember I have never achieved. Your saying that doing Goodmornings, kettleball snach, or cable rows I will achieve my goal faster and have lasting results over say your standard static stretches?

    Biologically what is happening to your body with isometrics, is your body recovering from micro tears in the connective tissue similar to building muscles?
     
  6. belltoller

    belltoller OffTopic MonstreOrdinaire Supporter

    Exactly...now you're saying that it is possible for older adults to recover some of that 'cold-start' ROM by isometric progression (increasing weights, etc)?

    Wonder if any research has been done on reintroducing elastin back into the muscular-skeletal system.
     
  7. belltoller

    belltoller OffTopic MonstreOrdinaire Supporter

    Ya, and at the brittle old age of 11, the coaches at my son's gymnastics school are debating as to whether he is to old to safely start the programme...
     
  8. belltoller

    belltoller OffTopic MonstreOrdinaire Supporter

    Do you have any supporting documentation for this claim, such as...pictures?
     
  9. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    Well, sure. You have to understand (and maybe I haven't made this clear in the past, which is my fault) I approach this strictly from a "How do I increase my flexibility?" angle. My main point being that there are far better ways to develop flexibility than relaxed stretches. But studies have shown doing relaxed stretches straight after weights (even between sets) increases strength gains by up to 15%.

    I don't do them. They have a role, just not in long-term flexibility development IMO.
     
  10. Madao13

    Madao13 Valued Member

    Thanks a lot for the reply!:)
    Things have become a lot more clear now!
     
  11. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    Good mornings, Romanian and stiff-leg deadlifts, and isometric hamstring stretches (e.g. front split) are what you need.

    In isometrics you do short tensions to override the stretch reflex so you can bring about increases in ROM, followed by a longer tension at the end of each set to build strength so those gains last.
     
  12. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    I think (or I hope) I've always argued older people can get, and stay, flexible. You can keep getting more flexible for as long as you have the potential to get stronger.

    "Cold" flexibility is a byproduct of isometric stretching. Think of it as being like how your current deadlift max will one day be your warm-up weight; you'll stretch to full splits (and build enough strength there) that it will become your new starting point in a stretching workout (like if you were building up to an oversplit, which actually takes less time than getting full splits).

    Not sure about the elastin thing. I don't know enough on the subject to say if elastin reabsorption is possible via pills, injections or whatnot.
     
  13. Albi Dacdil

    Albi Dacdil Valued Member

    No mate, I don't. It was from a flexibility forum like this one of female adult pole dancers. Most of them are at full-split flexibility, having done it as adults and without isometrics or strength-training. There are plenty of places around where one will find similar stories, or simply through one's observations and experiences throughout life. In the real world static stretching does work and can last for adults. Van has a theory he is invested in, trying to monopolize a market. Much may be great information, however it is a bit of a comical circus-act the extent to which he claims nothing else works in the permanent way he describes. Not in the real world. But sorry, no pictures, unfortunately. A hell of a gain, if true.
     
  14. Albi Dacdil

    Albi Dacdil Valued Member

    Regardless of the type of stretching work one uses, maintenance will always have to be a feature of permanent gain. If one gains flexibility through strength components, then one will have to maintain their strength work to maintain the flexibility gains. If one gains it through static stretching, one needs to maintain there static stretching. There is no magic pill for flexibility, or anything else. Nice if there were.
     
  15. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    I'm guessing you're referring to Studio Veena or Polexia. They're the two major forums for pole dancing and I've provided flexibility advice to users on both sites. You will find the number of users who cannot do splits outnumber those who do, because they started training as adults (see my earlier posts for why). The two biggest-selling authors of pole dancing stretching DVDs, Alethea Austin and Jamilla Deville, both started training in dance and gymnastics at an early age. They used stretching methods which work for children, which is why their DVDs contain mostly traditional stretches. It is yet another case of flexible people displaying their flexibility and saying "do what I do", rather than actually teaching people the hows and whys of effective flexibility training. No surprise then that a lot of users on those forums say they are making slow gains at best. (These two authors seem to be the first stop in flexibility training for pole dancing enthusiasts.)

    I have to admit it's the first time I've been accused of trying to "monopolise the market" (whatever that means). Especially when I offer this information for free. Would you say the same of others who share similar ideas as me, yet sell theirs for a fee? (Kurz, Tsatsouline, Zaichik, Cooley etc)

    Like I said, if traditional stretching is your thing then crack on brother. My goal isn't to stop you doing traditional stretches; my goal is to save you time and effort. Up to you if you follow my advice or not.
     
  16. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    Round of applause for Captain Obvious.
     
  17. Albi Dacdil

    Albi Dacdil Valued Member

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 25, 2013
  18. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    Mind sharing the forum address with us so we can verify your claim?

    You didn't ask a question but you're out of your mind if you think I'm just going to sit there and not respond when you accuse me of trying to "monopolise the market" (still not 100% sure what the hell you mean by that). I've done as best as humanly possible to address the statements you made, but it's hard when you post 30 times in a row. If you interpret my initial responses as making you feel unwelcome then you have a hell of a lot more growing up to do. As for pedaling a theory - who is the one constantly reiterating the value of traditional stretching methods here? You offer no scientific basis or evidence of any kind other than anecdotes from a single pole dancing forum (which is yet to be validated).
     
  19. Frodocious

    Frodocious She who MUST be obeyed! Moderator Supporter

  20. Albi Dacdil

    Albi Dacdil Valued Member

    I have said nothing Van Zandt has said himself earlier in this thread, if you are referring to my comment of "smart ****" at the end of my last post. You have your wish, and I'm signing out.
     

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