Firstly, we aren't even arguing if given similar technique whether ninjutsu is more subtle. I agree with you that it is because it is a requirement in the system to pass on the knowledge and development of subtlety. My argument is that ONE attribute of perfection of technique is it exhibits the properties of subtlety. So I'm presenting various different items (videos) and such and gathering the opinions of people on this board. What I am trying to establish is if my theory holds that those who have perfected technique, exhibit subtlety in action. I have shown examples of some that you claim is not subtle, but I see the technique, particularly the use of timing, angles, and distance as very subtle, even if it appears to be big movements, there is subtlety in those movements IMHO. I also am stating that the subtlety in these movements is most evident when used against someone that is much stronger, faster, and bigger. I have yet to find video evidence to completely support this part of my theory, but I believe it to be true. I guess this is the question you wanted me to answer. I don't call it subtlety, although after this thread I might change my mind. The first response from me is that a technique that catches me every time is a "perfected technique". It does not mean it is perfect, what I mean is that it is an example of perfection. Bill Wallace had a kick combination that everyone knew was coming sooner or later, but he would over and over catch people with this combination because he was so good at it. He had perfected the technique. Perfection is not just the movements done naturally, effectively, efficiently, but also done with little visible effort and with perfect timing and structure. Nothing is totally perfect but something imperfect can still be an example of perfection due to it being better than other things, therefore it is an example of a level we wish to obtain or surpass... it is what we train for. So I don't get all into definitions, if something is good, I say good technique... I don't say subtle technique. However, it very well should be that good technique is also subtle and the converse should also be true that subtle technique should be good technique due to the time spent gaining subtlety. I might say good technique is an example of subtlety in action.
That's a Sunday, so I should be free to attend. PM me information on it before I make a decision, but if anything I should plan on coming by just to say hello. Thanks
Running at tori is an example of a committed attack, not sure if it is considered a good attack. Certainly if this was not Aikido but instead a training video for dealing with person charging at you... it would be quite appropriate that the attacker actually charge at you in the training. Also notice there isn't much of any type of multiple attacks coming from uke, something that should be trained against. The grabbing part is interesting. I was told in my Aikido training to never grab because it was considered hard style, even Judo was considered hard style to Aikidoka because of the grabbing. But note it was okay for uke to grab as that represented an attack from which tori can apply technique. However, come about some time later I was told it was okay to grab. The difference was in the timing of the grab. Basically, once uke is weakened and controlled, it is okay to grab to finish strongly. So in this line of thinking, unlike Judo where established grips come often from the start, in Aikido there should not be a grab by tori except when uke is sufficiently weakened where the grab allows for a strong finish, IME. The exception is that some techniques used by Aikidoka are more jujutsu techniques that might use a grab as part of the technique.
Okay, my own opinion of subtlety in the above videos. I see some examples, I will list just one from each video. #1 video, at the very end at 2:53+ there is a roll into a shoulder lock. I see this as something I would say is subtle because it actually reminded me of a ninja move. Not to be disrespectful, I mean that the body moves in unexpected ways and the result is not something I expected either. Technique was fairly clean too, another sign to me of subtlety in action. #2 video, at 3:14 and about with the wooden swords, Shioda Sensei effortlessly evades the strike while striking uke with his own sword. Very subtle movements to me, footwork and sword swing, use of angles, etc. #3 video, Royce Gracie's use of legs and hips while on the ground is very subtle. It is throughout the entire video. Eventually getting the opponent to lean on his own arm while it is pinned underneath Royce.
IMO 1. Very tense. Lots of strength. When he steps he always goes too far, compromising his own balance. 2. At the very beginning, and at the start of the bokken work there was some subtlety. Elsewhere no. Maybe intentionally? 3. No subtlety. Good for the ring maybe. But telegraphs and uses lots of strength to gain position. Some "tricks" but no subtlety.
okay, why all the double posts? I only hit the button once. This is the second time. Maybe Frank Dux has put a ninja hex on my computer.
Do 'yo mama' jokes count as subtle? Halfway joking because I think that for all the talking and arguing here, subtely is a natural result of long and repetitive training that makes your body react automatically. Halfway not joking because getting inside the other person's head is a subtle way of getting the upper hand. Depending on the person in front of you, a 'yo mama' joke could trigger all sorts of reactions, from rage to disbelief to whatever, and it may make them react without thinking things through.
No, that is more like feinting or drawing and it isn't built into the art. Silent kiai could be considered subtle but how widespread they are in the art today is questionable. Same with kukinage.
