Subtlety

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Please reality, May 20, 2012.

  1. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Let's try to keep on subtlety if possible. OP is that Ninjutsu is more subtle than other arts(say aikido for example) when comparing similar techniques. This morphed into ninjutsu is more subtle than many arts in general. It also delved into subtlety coming with time in an art and improvement. None of these areas came into flamethrower wrist locks. The subtle thing to do when faced with a not so subtle weapon like a flame thrower would be to signal your sniper buddy in the tree to take him out before he got close enough to burn the marshmallows you wanted to toast.

     
    Last edited: May 28, 2012
  2. gapjumper

    gapjumper Intentionally left blank

    Ah yes it's the guy I was thinking of. Tekko, kyahan and the funky sleeveless gi.
     
  3. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    For training purposes, yes, uke is trained to attack in specific ways to aid in the demonstration and learning of technique. This is not a problem and is a widely accepted practice. For example strong single punch with a step, but uke is not allowed to track tori with the punch. Tori preforms technique...

    The issue is that of lack of progressive resistance. Many times uke is trained to attack in a specific way so that tori can practice technique, but as tori gets better and uke is better able to protect him/herself, then the resistance should increase.

    If you look at the videos, you do not see uke changing their attack to attempt to counter tori. This is due to the way uke is "trained" to attack.

    Take that last video... would the same results happen if uke was well trained in Judo and this was a sparring match? I think we would be seeing a completely different type of response from uke.

    It is kind of like if a tree falls in the forest but no one is there to hear it, did the tree really fall. Of course the tree fell because of the laws of physics, but because no one was there to record it, we don't have witnesses.

    The potential for subtlety is always there, but it only becomes necessary when faced in a situation where you would fail if not for your subtlety in action.

    An extreme case, uke grabs your sleeve and as you apply your technique, uke's thumb is caught in your clothes putting uke in a thumb lock. Uke reels in pain and taps out immediately. This would seem very subtle to uke the first time it happens, but really you didn't do anything unusual. Yes you did perform a technique due to subtle movements, but it was also luck that uke grabbed you the way he did.

    Now next time uke learns not to grab that way and instead grabs with the fingers on the sleeve and removes slack like a judoka is trained to do. The thumb lock option is gone, so now you have to be even subtle to get things to work. It isn't as simple because uke is more skilled and experienced in the manner of attack.
     
  4. tenchijin2

    tenchijin2 Valued Member

    The correct question is "... did the tree make a sound?" Not "did it fall?"

    But anyway, there is something characteristically different about aikido movement that makes it look less subtle. The energy projection is very strong in the arms, and it's easy to SEE it when watching and when feeling it. To me, that makes it not subtle. That's not to say it's *bad* but it just doesn't have the same feeling that I associate with subtlety.

    Aric
     
  5. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I would debate that Ninjutsu as a system is more subtle than other arts due to the nature and intent of the training. However, I would argue against Ninjutsu technique being more subtle than many other arts in general. The reason is that technique is dependent on opportunity.

    We are saying the same thing I believe. You actually might train with a weapon pointed at you from close range. In some other art, for instance boxing, it might never be part of training to have to deal with a weapon pointed at you from close range.

    I think this makes Ninjutsu a more complete art and helps to promote the development of subtlety in more situations.

    The flame thrower was an example of taking subtlety out of the realm of pure technique. Now you have to find ways to buy time, such as verbally distract the opponent, talk them out of it, blind them, use a sniper, etc. And when you move, you do not want the weapon to ever point at anything you don't want burned.

    Here is where we differ some. I agree that you it is better not to lift uke's arm, but this is not subtlety... hear me out here... what this is is good technique. One principle is to move around the sword, so you do not lift or move uke's arm forcefully, but instead move around it giving uke to energy to work with and counter. What you call subtlety is really just good technique.

    Believe it or not, every art is into good technique. I absolutely do not believe that Ninjutsu in the regard is any more subtle than other arts... it depends on the training method.

    Anyone that trains with someone that is twice or more their size and can one arm curl more than your body weight will come to realize that you can't just move uke's arm and expect that to work all the time. In fact, it is said that wrist locks happen where the wrist lies (this is from Aikido). So uke's arm is not moved at all for the wrist lock to occur. But then in videos, you see uke's arm being moved all over the place... So we see a lot of bad technique in videos... however, good technique is more subtle by nature and good technique is good technique in any art.

    Ninjutsu should not be any different or more subtle in technique compared to good technique done in other arts. How Ninjutsu might be different is in insisting on good technique by insisting on subtlety... good technique and subtlety go together.

    The real issue is there is a lot of examples of bad technique out there.

    He is afraid of the pain you might cause him, so he jerks his hand away before committing fully.

    Or alternatively it is a feint and he changes angle and direction of attack.

    I addressed this. Bad technique is bad technique in all arts. What you are talking about is just good technique. Subtlety comes with good technique.

    Believe me, there is a lot of context behind many things done certain ways. I know some instructors have bad knees, for example, so when demonstrating certain techniques, they can't completely show the best way to do it. Students copy what they see and they end up doing it in the same wrong way. However, it still works because uke isn't really resisting them. I know this because instructors have told me the correct way they want it done and have told me that they can't do it that way completely.

    Again, you may be placing undue emphasis on subtlety as independent of other things. Good technique and subtlety go together.

    And creating opportunity is all about subtlety, IMHO. Perhaps you might be thinking that creating opportunity then follows with a specific technique... no that is not what I mean. I mean creating the opportunity for any technique. That technique comes with the opening immediately... you do not see openings and then act as by the time you see it, the opening is already gone. If I have good technique, there is less opportunity for the opponent to counter and more opportunity for me to control and subjugate the opponent.

    Good technique creates opportunity... good technique is subtle.

    "If you go back to the definition(s) we are working with, the key is in not telegraphing what you are going to do, being efficient, and leaving the opponent clueless as to your intent."

    In your above statement/definition, you just described the primary premise of training for tournament karate point fighting. I know for a fact that much of my training for tournaments involved learning not to telegraph, moving efficiently, and leaving the opponent clueless as to my intent. Also was the awareness training to read the intent of the opponent and find weakness in them.

    Of course, tournament fighting is sport and Ninjutsu is not, so there are clearly differences.


    I do agree with what you say above, but at the same time, from cross training and years of sparring, I know that opponents differ in approaches.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2012
  6. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Oops, yeah. I was being too subtle for my own good ;)

    Yes, I agree.

    Primarily I was trying to point out that it is less subtle because uke in Aikido are trained to attack a specific way. This promotes the learning of technique against a strong forward force.

    However, from training in Aikido and from sparring Aikidoka in open sparring sessions, Aikidoka seldom can get away with these large movements and then their true colors come out. I have been quite impressed by many with Aikido backgrounds that are able to fight well. They might look like bad kickboxers in sparring, for example, but given a lapse in judgement by me, I have found a hand moving through my face in an instant as the fundamental movement of irimi taught in Aikido is sound.

    I might come as a surprise that those big movements are considered bad technique in Aikido. They are mostly for learning and demonstration purposes to see what is going on. I was told to do wrist locks where the hand lies (in other words don't move the arm of uke). That was preferred technique. But you see in Aikido training, uke's arm moving all over the place. Again, this is due to the way that uke is trained to attack in Aikido.

    For instance, a knife thrust, as uke is trained to thrust with forward force, it is easier to learn to slightly move uke's arm in the direction it is already moving. This is very subtle because uke's force is not changing direction. When an arm is extending passed 50%, it is very hard to stop and retract that arm until there comes a natural stopping point, then you can change direction. By moving the arm in the same direction it is already going, only a fraction (less than a few inches), you extend the natural stopping point of the arm, thus prolonging the point where uke can easily retract his arm. From this point, technique follows.

    What is not seen in most all videos is that much of technique in Aikido is actually Jujutsu and not specifically Aikido. Aikido is more about learning principles, but the techniques are basically categories or groupings of similar techniques. Therefore, if uke thrusts with the knife, but this is really just a feint. You can imagine how hard it would be to trap uke's hand and apply a wrist lock because uke is just faking the thrust and retracting back or changing direction just sooner. Now you can still use Aikido footwork, but almost all technique diverts to Jujutsu because uke is not attacking in a manner that promotes the use of Aikido.

    Perhaps this is why the founder of Aikido said that Aikido was 90% atemi (striking).
     
  7. Kagete

    Kagete Banned Banned

    He's married to Sheila Haddad. At least he used to be.
     
  8. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Lot to cover...

     
  9. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    PR, I think I can summarize subtlety in techniques, IMHO, as the following:

    1) Subtlety is not necessary for a technique to work if you can force a technique to work using strength, speed, leverage, positioning, etc.

    2) When a technique fails, but otherwise would have been the appropriate response, often the failure is due to the person's lack of sound fundamentals. However, when you have sound fundamentals but the technique still fails due to the opponent being too strong and fast, this is when subtlety is necessary. This could be a good indication that you fundamentals need to emphasize subtlety better.

    3) There are three ways to learn subtlety in what you do. The first way is to have specific knowledge passed on to you from a teacher or other source. The second way is to discover more subtle methods from you own success. The third way is to steal the knowledge through your own experiences (being on the receiving end of it). In many cases it is a combination of all three used to learn, first something happens you don't quite understand so you ask what the other person did, they tell you, then you try to do it yourself, then have them do it to you again, etc. until you have an idea of what is going on.

    4) To steal subtlety can also include stealing through observation, but that often takes a person with the aptitude for this sort of thing, like someone that watches how a cat catches prey and actually coming out with a way to apply that to martial arts. Even a cat is taught some things such as to break the neck, cats not taught this would not demonstrate this finishing technique, for example. So it depends on what you observe. Observing someone with bad technique and trying to steal it, might just have you learning bad technique.

    5) Combining the above points, it comes down to the learning of fundamentals. If fundamentals are weak, then any technique will also be weak when under fire (in pressure testing). Maybe the technique can be forced to work, but given a stronger, bigger, faster opponent, the likely hood of forcing a technique is greatly diminished.

    The premise would then be that someone adept in ninjutsu would have strong fundamentals and those fundamentals would have the knowledge of subtlety ingrained in them. Thus all technique would be more subtle.

    This subtlety in fundamentals is neglected or missing in many other martial arts. However, there are individuals in any art that can have knowledge of subtlety ingrained in their fundamentals but they fail to pass on that knowledge to others, whereas, this knowledge is part of the system to be passed on when it comes to ninjutsu.

    Where ninjutsu fails though, is when this knowledge of subtlety is not passed on in fundamentals. Why does it seem that there are many examples of this? Is it because the fundamentals are being brought in from other arts or teachers where the knowledge of subtlety has been lost already?
     
  10. gapjumper

    gapjumper Intentionally left blank

    Now forgive me here but...

    Looking at some of these videos that I consider to lack subtlety (in particular mr seibukan)...they do remind me of the movement type shown in some non-buj xkan videos.

    Anyone else?
     
  11. Kagete

    Kagete Banned Banned

    I'd wager there's more time to explore the idea of subtlety in peacetime.
     
  12. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Sure, why not? I'd equally wager that the people everyone listened to most were the subtle ones who survived the fighting.
     
  13. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    We aren't arguing whether or not you need subtlety, just whether or not ninjutsu is more subtle than other arts(not all of course) given similar technique or in general. You still haven't dealt with a crucial issue so let me ask you again:

    For Rebel Wado!!!!!

    What do you call a technique that you know is coming, know how to do, know how it works, yet catches you every time(not due to speed or power or tricks either) even though you know your teacher is about to do it on you?

     
  14. Kagete

    Kagete Banned Banned

    Against which I'd wager that we wouldn't have people saying that if we weren't living in peacetime.

    http://www.cracked.com/article_17019_5-real-life-soldiers-who-make-rambo-look-like-pussy.html

    I'd also wager that you continuously choose to thank me because you know that I don't want you to. Very budo-esque. Your teacher has made a fine human being out of you.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2012
  15. stephenk

    stephenk Valued Member

    I got an idea: how about someone get a hall and everyone who can make it can get together and show each other what they mean?

    And then drink. A lot.
     
  16. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Going back to video. Is there anything subtle that you can point out in these videos:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOzf0E68BMo"]Real Aikido by Nenad Ikras - YouTube[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kj0TgZTs2cg"]Aikido Gozo Shioda - YouTube[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJuQP0hO6s4"]Royce Gracie vs Akebono - YouTube[/ame]
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2012
  17. tenchijin2

    tenchijin2 Valued Member

    Yes actually I see some subtlety in his (first aikido clip) movement. It has to do with how he times his body movements. Haven't watched the others yet.

    BTW, I see that you're in Seattle. I will be doing a Bujinkan seminar in Mountlake Terrace on July 1, if you're interested.

    Aric

     
    Last edited: May 30, 2012
  18. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Paging Rebel Wado. You still haven't answered the question. This is the crux of subtlety in my opinion.
     
  19. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    A few quick questions. Is running at your tori considered a good attack in Aikido? Do you notice that even this amazing exponent(Shioda sensei) grabs the opponents elbow when doing the armlock? I think Yoshinkan is more badarse than Aikiki but subtle I wouldn't agree with. His ideas on cutting are also a bit strange(though I think he was joking).
     
  20. gapjumper

    gapjumper Intentionally left blank

    Like a House of Commons type thing?
     

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