Ok, so apologies if I am rehashing old arguments but I was thinking about subs and 'the street' and thinking how useless the tap out is in those circumstances. But whilst chokes are established fight enders, I'm not so sure about some armlocks etc. Painful? Yep. Damaging to joints? Sometimes. Breaking bones and leaving someone unable to continue? Meh. I can just see scenarios where you get to a sub, but where does it go from there? What are the subs that will end a fight, and which are the ones that make them scream but then can carry on once you release the pressure? Just curious - I'm no groundfighter, but things like bent armlocks, when I've put them on or had them put on me still don't feel like they would really incapacitate when they are cranked on
Big Nog begs to differ. Although to be fair not many people can crank subs with the power and ruthlessness of Frank Mir.
I think you have seen too much bad joint locks. Any lock can also be a throw or a break. If a lock is used to immobilize and give the opponent an opportunity to surrender, then it should happen from 60-70% range of motion... this gives you another 30% to actually break the joints. If going right for a break then the technique is done 200-300% normal speed (also known as severe technique). If going for a throw, the technique is done in stages to break the posture (head and shoulders), break the connection between spine and hips, and finally to take the feet/legs away (project them into something solid like the ground). When the above can't happen, it probably is bad technique. Most martial arts questions usually come as a result of bad technique. IME.
Kimuras are deceptive like that. There's a reason I tap out to them quickly and that's because they go "no tension, no tension, no tension, tension, tens- snap." Basically every submission that isn't a pain one (calf/bicep slicer, achilles hold etc) have the potential to be fight enders since they all attack joints. Whether they would or not depends very much on the person I imagine.
Broken joints end the fight VERY quickly - I have broken 6 arms "live" and it is game over every time, even with the incredibly drunk
Personally in the (highly unlikely) situation I'm involved in a fight for my life and I'm on the ground, my goal is to get back on my feet as soon as possible. If you were on the ground, potentially a lock may not "finish" an attacker but it might create an opening to transition to a better position for escaping. Unsuccessful submission attempts can create other openings sometimes.
I am also well on my way to triple figures in chokeouts - although thankfully as I am not front line any more I have not had a ruck for while
I can't say i have been in a fight on the street that involved grappling, but against someone who isn't expecting it in sparring, people tend to get overly cautious with tapping to leg locks, i imagine if you mangle someone's knee the fight would probably be over quick smart, and if you don't think leg locks are particularly fearsome, you need to look at the faces of some of the blokes who've lost to Rousimar Palhares.
Major joint breaks will end a fight quickly. Chokes are best. No one keeps fighting when they're choked out.
Yeah its one of those locks where the injury comes BEFORE pain. Everything else either hurts loads or you feel pressure. In SD I've always used a variation of a keylock/chickenwing as a restraint move or as a 'Pain compliance', to have people move off or something similar. There are some people who are just 'bendy' though and they feel nothing. Until you choke them....or so I heard from a friend of a friend once.
Slicers are attacks on the joint, they separate it and I've seen both do long-term damage. If by "achilles hold" you just mean digging the bone into the tendon, it's true that's tricky to actually do proper harm with. A properly done straight-ankle lock, however, can mangle you very, very badly.
Stop me if I'm wrong. Slicers can cause pain/lock on the nearby joint but they are muscle-on-bone compression type locks.
That part is why they hurt a lot in the early stages, but eventually on the bicep slicer either the elbow blows or one of the bone gives way. For example: [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZu1KenjJg4"]Nasty Jiu Jitsu Accident - Forearm Broke In Half - Compound Fracture - YouTube[/ame] On the knee I don't know if the bone can break, but certainly it can blow the ligaments. I have seen this happen and it was unpleasant.