Subs that actually finish fights

Discussion in 'Brazilian Jiu Jitsu' started by bigreddog, Mar 12, 2015.

  1. bigreddog

    bigreddog Valued Member

    Ok, so apologies if I am rehashing old arguments but I was thinking about subs and 'the street' and thinking how useless the tap out is in those circumstances.

    But whilst chokes are established fight enders, I'm not so sure about some armlocks etc. Painful? Yep. Damaging to joints? Sometimes. Breaking bones and leaving someone unable to continue? Meh. I can just see scenarios where you get to a sub, but where does it go from there? What are the subs that will end a fight, and which are the ones that make them scream but then can carry on once you release the pressure?

    Just curious - I'm no groundfighter, but things like bent armlocks, when I've put them on or had them put on me still don't feel like they would really incapacitate when they are cranked on
     
  2. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Big Nog begs to differ. :(

    [​IMG]

    Although to be fair not many people can crank subs with the power and ruthlessness of Frank Mir.
     
  3. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I think you have seen too much bad joint locks. Any lock can also be a throw or a break. If a lock is used to immobilize and give the opponent an opportunity to surrender, then it should happen from 60-70% range of motion... this gives you another 30% to actually break the joints.

    If going right for a break then the technique is done 200-300% normal speed (also known as severe technique).

    If going for a throw, the technique is done in stages to break the posture (head and shoulders), break the connection between spine and hips, and finally to take the feet/legs away (project them into something solid like the ground).

    When the above can't happen, it probably is bad technique. Most martial arts questions usually come as a result of bad technique. IME.
     
  4. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Kimuras are deceptive like that. There's a reason I tap out to them quickly and that's because they go "no tension, no tension, no tension, tension, tens- snap."

    Basically every submission that isn't a pain one (calf/bicep slicer, achilles hold etc) have the potential to be fight enders since they all attack joints. Whether they would or not depends very much on the person I imagine.
     
  5. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Broken joints end the fight VERY quickly - I have broken 6 arms "live" and it is game over every time, even with the incredibly drunk
     
  6. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Sounds like a failed Marvel super hero. :)
     
  7. Moi

    Moi Warriors live forever x

    You still left the giant squid with two arms? Taking a chance there :)
     
  8. Prizewriter

    Prizewriter Moved on

    Personally in the (highly unlikely) situation I'm involved in a fight for my life and I'm on the ground, my goal is to get back on my feet as soon as possible. If you were on the ground, potentially a lock may not "finish" an attacker but it might create an opening to transition to a better position for escaping. Unsuccessful submission attempts can create other openings sometimes.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2015
  9. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    6 arms and counting :evil:
     
  10. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    I am also well on my way to triple figures in chokeouts - although thankfully as I am not front line any more I have not had a ruck for while
     
  11. qazaqwe

    qazaqwe Valued Member

    I can't say i have been in a fight on the street that involved grappling, but against someone who isn't expecting it in sparring, people tend to get overly cautious with tapping to leg locks, i imagine if you mangle someone's knee the fight would probably be over quick smart, and if you don't think leg locks are particularly fearsome, you need to look at the faces of some of the blokes who've lost to Rousimar Palhares.
     
  12. bigreddog

    bigreddog Valued Member

    Thanks for the answers guys
     
  13. greg1075

    greg1075 Valued Member

    Major joint breaks will end a fight quickly. Chokes are best. No one keeps fighting when they're choked out.
     
  14. Mushroom

    Mushroom De-powered to come back better than before.

    Yeah its one of those locks where the injury comes BEFORE pain. Everything else either hurts loads or you feel pressure.

    In SD I've always used a variation of a keylock/chickenwing as a restraint move or as a 'Pain compliance', to have people move off or something similar.
    There are some people who are just 'bendy' though and they feel nothing. Until you choke them....or so I heard from a friend of a friend once. :p
     
  15. PointyShinyBurn

    PointyShinyBurn Valued Member

    Slicers are attacks on the joint, they separate it and I've seen both do long-term damage. If by "achilles hold" you just mean digging the bone into the tendon, it's true that's tricky to actually do proper harm with. A properly done straight-ankle lock, however, can mangle you very, very badly.
     
  16. greg1075

    greg1075 Valued Member

    Stop me if I'm wrong. Slicers can cause pain/lock on the nearby joint but they are muscle-on-bone compression type locks.
     
  17. PointyShinyBurn

    PointyShinyBurn Valued Member

    That part is why they hurt a lot in the early stages, but eventually on the bicep slicer either the elbow blows or one of the bone gives way. For example: [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZu1KenjJg4"]Nasty Jiu Jitsu Accident - Forearm Broke In Half - Compound Fracture - YouTube[/ame]

    On the knee I don't know if the bone can break, but certainly it can blow the ligaments. I have seen this happen and it was unpleasant.
     
  18. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    yeah slicers are probably the most dangerous of subs/hardest to recover from
     
  19. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    And twisting ankle locks, education and progressive inception in training is the way forward.
     

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