Submissions from non-dominant positions

Discussion in 'Brazilian Jiu Jitsu' started by TheMightyMcClaw, May 28, 2007.

  1. TheMightyMcClaw

    TheMightyMcClaw Dashing Space Pirate

    I was inspired by [ame=]this video from Submissions101[/ame], and I'm curious if anyone has had any success with submissions that don't come from the dominant positions of BJJ. Aside from the one mentioned above, all I can think of are can openers (which are generally illegal), the triangle as a counter for a cradle from judo, and leg locks being set up from inside the guard or when turtled. I also seem to recall a video that got posted on here a while ago of Shen Yin doing some kind of guillotine from beneath side control.

    Do you think that these types of submissions have any validity? I know I always get taken a bit by surprise when someone tries to tap me out from inside my guard. Does the "position before submission" attitude lull us into a false sense of security?
  2. Lekta

    Lekta Super-Valued Power Member

    If I am having too much trouble opening my opponent's guard and I fear being swept, I will try to submit. Usually I just stand and choke (I have tapped people with this) and it makes for a nice set-up into an ankle lock.
  3. Stalkachu

    Stalkachu resU deretsigeR

    This topic hits fairly close to home with me, since this aspect of jiu-jitsu has interested me for quite some time, with particular emphasis on side control submissions. My two standard attacks from there consist of the short armbar from under side (bridge and snake, slide shin across stomach, pass other leg over head, extend), and the reverse triangle as counter to the cradle. However, I take a proactive approach and try to get the armwrap with the legs before switching to the reverse triangle. From there, if I get the triangle, I immediately go to a pressing armbar (mainly), kimura, or americana on the near arm to submit there. I find that much higher percentage than messing around with trying to submit with a choke that isn't THAT strong, although definitely still solid. There's also a figure four arm and leg choke from under north south I got out of a book, but it's not that high percentage, although I've pulled it off on a few blue belts in my time.

    Submissions from on top of guard I'm not a big fan of, although I have been shown the pressing armbar as a counter to the guy putting his arm under one leg to go for the flower sweep. Pin the arm with your leg and then reach down and pop the elbow up. Had it done to me, so it works, but not easy to pull off. You can also counter a triangle by basically stiffarming their collar across their throat and controlling their hips by gripping their pants with your free hand. That stops them from giving up the triangle and gives you the opportunity to tap them then and there.

    Under mount, the only real submission is bridge, pop a knee through and roll to the heel hook, which if you're good at it is a devastating escape, and well worth knowing, even if only to defend it.

    You've also got the various footlocks when someone has your back, plus the shinlock - grabbing their foot and using the point of your elbow to apply the pressure, which is another nice, but far too dangerous to really use, move to be aware of.

    That's about my range for me, I think.


    Hope that helps!

    Take care,

  4. Oversoul

    Oversoul Valued Member

    -Medial keylock to an opponent behind you (kind of easy to pull off if you set it up right, I think)
    -Kneebar to an opponent behind you (seems to see some use)
    -Lateral keylock from inside the guard (I used to pull it off but don't care for it anymore--only works on suckers)
    -Side choke from inside the guard (some claim it's actually good but I have yet to be convinced)
    -Toe hold when an opponent with rear mount tries to get hooks in (I've actually used this and it seems viable)
    -That shoulder choke Jason Von Flue used to choke Alex Karalexis out (it worked for him)
    -Vice choke setup to an opponent behind you (I can't think of any actual examples but this totally works)
    -Medial keylock from underneath side control (never seen it finished there, but I've seen it set up from there)
    -Funky gi choke from underneath north/south (my instructor locked the choke on after being held down for about 20 seconds and the guy worked so hard to keep the pin that he didn't defend the choke and was sleeping when the referee stopped the match because of the hold-down!)
    -Omoplata against a shooting opponent (seen it work, too risky for my taste)
    -Medial keylock against sprawling opponent (when it fails it usually does almost nothing, but if you sink it the move is great)

    Speaking of that last one, I see no reason you couldn't apply the lock from inside the opponent's guard. Oh--I just invented a new move! No more fooling around with trying to pass guard for me. And when the guy inevitably takes my back from this ridiculous move, I can practice those other submissions...
  5. Stalkachu

    Stalkachu resU deretsigeR

    Just to be a little picky, but the Jason Von Flue choke was on top of side control, just in a guillotine. And it does work, as long as you get the pressure just right and the guy's not much bigger than you. It's one of only two moves I've ever choked someone unconscious with, and both were because it's not a standard move so people don't react until it's too late.

    So, uh, it's not a non-dominant position.

    As for all of the others...

    -Lateral keylock from inside the guard - More detail?

    -Vice choke setup to an opponent behind you - Ditto?

    The rest are all risky, but the cream of the group is the kneebar to the person behind you, closely followed by the north south choke (whichever one it is, a good gi choke from north south is dangerous). All of the rest are, um, a little dangerous for my liking. Then again, for every move there's a guy out there who's really dangerous with it, so fair play to that guy. I'm just pretty sure it's not me. ^_^

    Take care,

  6. Oversoul

    Oversoul Valued Member

    Well, like a lot (arguably all) of the others it didn't end in a non-dominant position. But he set it up from inside a guillotine.

    You've never seen a lateral keylock from inside the guard? It's the same as a lateral keylock from the mount, except it only works on chumps. Or at least that's my perception. Some people claim it's actually a good attack.

    The vice choke one is much more rare, but I think it's simple enough to explain. I'm on my knees with my opponent behind me but he doesn't have hooks in (my legs need to be free to shoot out to the side). He gets high on me, probably going for a choke, and sticks his head over my left shoulder. I reach back and clasp my left hand over his neck, then bring my right hand up onto my left hand as I turn left and shoot my hips out to the right. If executed quickly enough I can actually roll him onto his back and apply a vice choke with my left arm on his neck. I haven't seen much of this, but I have pulled it off myself. And even if I couldn't lock on a choke I still got out of a disadvantageous position, so I think it's a viable, albeit situational, move.

    I agree. I'd much rather take the time to get a good position than try to pull a submission from underneath mount or whatever.
  7. Slindsay

    Slindsay All violence is necessary

    Whats a lateral keylock? Is it that one where their amr is straight bu you still have your arms figure foured and put pressure on the elbow joint?
  8. JayKayD

    JayKayD Meet my friend PAIN!

    I've had so many people try and muscle that one on me its not even funny. Mostly Judoka who don't know its not a good idea to attack from inside the guard. I don't rate it. I'm taking it to mean just a bent arm lock, with the hand facing upwards.

    I'm guessing we aren't counting under half guard as a non-dominant position?

    I can't think of many that haven't already been mentioned. There is a good armbar from kesa-gatame (scarf hold) i regularly use in Judo, basically you try get your elbow to the floor, overhook their overhook, get to your knees then basically armbar them using your overhook and your head. If that doesn't work its pretty easy to transition to a normal armbar by climbing a leg over, like you would if you went for an armbar from half guard.
    Last edited: May 31, 2007
  9. Oversoul

    Oversoul Valued Member

    I don't believe I've seen that one...

    Trying to picture it. When you say overhook the overhook, what exactly do you mean?
  10. Slindsay

    Slindsay All violence is necessary

    While I'm at it, what does an armbar from half guard look like? Is it like the usual; armbar from guard except with a bit more difficulty with getting the leg trapped under them out?
  11. Stalkachu

    Stalkachu resU deretsigeR

    I've seen a short armbar from half-guard where you just sorta stuff one leg in and throw the other over the head, but I don't really rate it all that highly. Guess it could work if you set it up right, but getting to the full armbar from half-guard? Tricky, I'd say.

    Now, the triangle from half-guard is a solid 'guard from half-guard' technique, that I'm using a lot lately. Keep an overhook, push the head away, shrug the leg out from between their legs and pass over their arm to lock the triangle. S'a nice move because you get to keep the overhook to stop them posturing easily, too.

    Although andrew's comment about overhooking the arm is very relevant here, in my opinion.

    Take care,


    [Edit: You can also get a pressing armbar from half-guard if they overcommit one arm and you can shrug it onto your shoulder, which is another nice option to keep them guessing.]
  12. JayKayD

    JayKayD Meet my friend PAIN!

    There was a video of it floating round but for the life of me i can't find it anywhere. Its a really simple technique im just terrible at explaining it using only words.

    Basically, say they are lying on your right hand side, with their right arm wrapped around your head. After getting your right elbow to the floor and whatnot, you hook their right arm with your left, trapping it between your arm and your head. Then, ignoring some of the finer details, you posture up. The hardest part really is getting your elbow to the floor.

    The armbar from half guard i meant is kind of like the escape where you take their back; where you explosively jink a little to create space and then get your head under their arm, but if they are a little complacent with their arm instead of taking the back from there you go for an armbar. I guess you have to be pretty nippy and flexible, but i've had some success from it. Moreso in no-gi when you get all slippery and whatnot so its easier to duck under the arm.

    Aren't i just terrible at explaining things.
  13. JayKayD

    JayKayD Meet my friend PAIN!

    Er actually i meant underhook not overhook originally.
  14. Oversoul

    Oversoul Valued Member

    Ah. I don't recall seeing it, but it seems like it could work.
  15. TheMightyMcClaw

    TheMightyMcClaw Dashing Space Pirate

    I was messing around earlier today, and I think I came up with something similar. So, you know the scarfhold escape where you frame your forearms against the neck, push back, wrap your leg over their head, and sit up? I always called it the "bloodsport escape," because I learned it from watching the movie Bloodsport. Helio Gracie demonstrates it about [ame=]8:30[/ame] into this movie.
    So anyway, it's basically like that escape, but you shrimp until you get your bottom knee against their hip first. Then, when you do the bloodsport escape, they fall smoothly into an armbar with the knee folded against the side. That may or may not be what your talking about, and I have yet to test it, so it may or may not actually work. But dang, it felt cool.

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