Structure and yielding

What are the properties of the best structure for yielding?

• Structure = The arrangement of and relations between the many elements/parts of the body, mind, and spirit. The way your are "wired".
• Yielding = Bending but not breaking.

Discussion point: In martial arts, the training and practice helps to develop, strengthen, and understand particular structures. The structure serves as a platform for launching applications. Some structures are better suited than others for particular use cases.

In the case of yielding, I believe yielding is like an analogy of doing a pushup. The pushup represents yin and yang balance. If the opponent is like a mountain (significantly heavier than me), then I move away from them when I pushup against the opponent. If the opponent is like an air filled balloon (significantly lighter than me) then the opponent moves away from me when I pushup against the opponent. Yielding is to find that balance of force with the pushup so that I move away from the opponent and the opponent moves away from me with no excess force. From yielding, the opponent's force can be neutralized and they can be taken off balance quite efficiently.

I believe structure to have the properties of something placed between myself and the opponent. For example, a rigid structure is like placing a brick on the hard ground and then putting my hands on the top of the brick. From there I can do pushups. However, if the ground is like quicksand, the brick will just sink and I will not be able to do pushups.

If my structure is soft like jello, then the structure just collapses (squishes) under my hands.

On the other hand, if my structure is like that of a basketball. I can place the basketball on a hard surface and still do pushups. In fact the more force I use, the more bounce back the ball gives. I can also place the basketball on a soft surface and although it sinks in some, the ball floats (it does not submerge completely) and I an do pushups with my hands on the basketball.

The basketball also adds a level of instability. If I take my hands off the ball and then put them back on quickly, the ball could move and I could end up slipping and falling. So it is best that I have a constant connection with the ball.

So a structure with properties like a basketball is the one I believe is best for yielding.

(Note, I hope my talk of pushups and basketballs does not make me out to be a basket case.)

P.S. There is almost no sense in asking on the IMA forum with any expectation of a practical and informative answer.

 

I posted in General forum to include more members, not to exclude.

Point noted. Thanks.

The topic is about the desired properties for structure. It is hard to stand strong if you fall over or break easily. It is hard to get out of the way if you have no mobility. Be water is a great answer to the intent of my question.

There is also a very nice interaction of a basketball in water.

Where or how does one start to train to be like water?

 

Thinking about it, I've never really been a fan of the word "yield" - particularly within tai chi chuan, too many people take it to mean "totally submit" and allow themselves to be pushed about without any give-back.

Your thoughts regarding the basketball are very much how I was taught the concept of Peng-jin; which, for non tai-chi peeps, is one of the core expressions of force in tai chi chuan. When pushed against, it lifts and supports in an expansive manner. But when outside force is removed from it, it doesn't chase. It reflects the incoming force, for as long as that force is at play against it.
Like when you bounce a basketball, when Peng-jin intercepts a strike, it "bounces" the incoming force off onto a new vector.

 

At its simplest level it reflects the Tao Te Ching statement ""before you let something expand you must first let in contract" (paraphrase)

As a very basic physical concept thinking of jumping straight up...in order to do this with any success you first must go DOWN so you can then travel up...hence the "yield" with the "return"

This is a massively simple model, but illustrates concept

In combat terms, you could watch Ali (and everyone should) amd see the principle applied without contact...he draws the punch, takes himself away causing the opponent to "overcommit" and leaving them vulnerable for the counter. This is a core concept in my teaching too, which is another reason i insist on my students actually trying to hit each other

 

Thanks to everyone. :love:

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|----Applications----|
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|----Postures----|
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|-Structure-|
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|Principles|
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It looks like an inverted pyramid, but think of it as a tree instead.

Okay, there is one lesson I tried to use to help with understanding yielding with redirection while building structure. I believe it is a variant of the "Principle of Independent Motion". Basically, the lesson is in separating horizontal movements from vertical movements.

The lesson summary goes something like the following:
1) Move slightly off the line without rotating the body.
2) Move vertically (up/down, down/up) without rotating the body or leaning. (Although some natural/minimal rotation in coordination/harmony with the footwork is okay).
2a) As you move up and down, this brings your opponent off balance. If the opponent is slightly to your left, then sinking yourself down will cause the opponent to unbalance and lean towards your right. Alternatively, if the opponent is slightly to your right, then sinking yourself down will cause the opponent to unbalance and lean towards your left.
2b) As the opponent goes off balance, effortlessly start to cause them to twist.
3) Turn the body along the horizontal plane to support fully twisting the opponent. Let the feet go where they naturally go.
4) Throw the opponent down in a relaxed but structurally strong way. (At first it is going to be to throw the opponent into an unbalance point that they will fall into. However, if the opponent is able to resist, then use vertical movement to throw the opponent through the air.)

When body movements learn to separate vertical from horizontal movements, I feel strong structure with softness comes more naturally.

What to avoid is trying to move up/down (vertical) at the same time as rotating the body. This causes excessive leaning in one or another direction, and this is when the ability to yield and come back in another direction instantly with power is lost.

Note that minimal/natural rotation that goes with how the feet point/move is okay to be combined with vertical movements, but any rotation beyond that should be avoided. When rotating (horizontal plane), some minimal/natural vertical movement is okay depending on how the feet point/move, but any sinking/rising beyond that should be avoided.

 

With permission from the moderators, I"ll post an article I wrote several years ago about how to collapse the triangles of the human body.. It is based on my 40 yrs of martial arts training and 30 plus years of working in the emergency services training dealing with human anatomy

 

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=gDGTGpCN59o"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=gDGTGpCN59o[/ame]

I like what you did at 1.05. That's exactly what I have tried to achieve. If I can put my left arm on that position with my opponent's right arm, my left arm can "wrap" around his right arm (leading arm control) and establish the "clinch" that I'm looking for.

 

Similar move in this clip. The old man tried to "bait" his opponent's left punch.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTwBO-mccoI&feature=youtu.be"]Chang head lock 1 - YouTube[/ame]

I prefer more straight forward approach.

 

This movements for the snake disarm in the video show a good example of separation of horizontal and vertical movements.

 

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDGTGpCN59o"]Hubud - YouTube[/ame]


Simon at 2 minutes 36 seconds, you use the Hung gar one finger points to heaven hand position. Is this intentional? or did it simply feel natural at the time?

This hand position creates a tiny amount of tension which tends to rotate the elbow in and down. Thus helping to create the basket ball yielding structure (great analogy) discussed above.

 

Regarding Structure and Yielding...

Bob Nash wrote an essay recently where he quotes from a book on civil and military strategy written by Jiang Ziya in around 11th Century BC.


来たれば即ち迎え、去れば即ち送り、
対すれば即ち和す。
五五の十
二八の十
一九の十
是を以て和すべし。
虚実を察し、陰伏を知り、
大は方処を絶ち、細は微塵に入る。
殺活機にあり、変化時に応ず。
事に臨んで心を動ずること莫(なかれ)や。

If it comes, then meet it, if it leaves, then send it away.

If it resists, than harmonize it.

5 and 5 are 10.
2 and 8 are 10.
1 and 9 are 10.

You should harmonize like this.

Intuit true and false, know what is hidden, the large suppresses all, the small enters the microscopic.

There are chances for life and death, without reacting to changes.

Approach things without moving your heart (without being disturbed).