Striking vs Grappling

Re: ?

In fairness to the grapplers, they where likely in a better position to distribute finishing blows more often on the ground. But you are right, if all you train is grappling you won't see these openings...

Yep

Well here lies the flaw in doing one or the otherm or even crosstraining. You have to understand all ranges and all skills, and realise that its all one skill set, not 3 or 4 seperate games.

If you train in kickboxing and BJJ and wrestling more power to you. That is a good starting point, but as seperate arts they don't recognise the skills of the other two.

Training kickboxing in isolation is good for your kickboxing. But it is only doing a part of the whole. Kind of like only sparring with jabs, then only with hooks, then only with uppercuts and then overhands. It will develop those skills individually, but thats not going to teach you how to box. Integration is required.

Ground, standupp or clinch, doesn't matter as much as how you train it. Lots of sparring and how to get into that range and stay there.

For example if you're going to do just strike, then you'd better do counters to tackles and clinches.

Probably want to work a little of each though.

maybe stuff like

guard sweeps
escaping mount
bridge and roll
conditioning
getting and holding a mount then pounding away
leg takedowns
couple clinch takedowns
conditioning
some punches/kicks/elbows/knees
sprawling
closing into a clinch
taking the back
conditioning
lots of sparring...
... oh and lots of conditioning


And custom design it based on the natural abilities of the student in question.

6 months isn't a lot of time, but it is certainely enough to make someone effective.

Now the tricky question, If we have a student for 6 years, should those 1st 6 months be the same as the 6 months of a student who is only going to be there for 6 months?

 

Re: ?

I can't answer the second question - I'm primarily a striker and secondarily a grappler. However I'm convinced that realistic self-defence must address both arenas and several ranges. (I'm not convinced of the relevance of long, long kicking range when the attacker is so far away I could just turn round and run away). Having started out in purely striking systems, it was something of an awakening for me to see how 'grapply' real violence is. The solution's not that hard though - just make sure you devote time to practising both sides of the coin. Oh yeh, and make sure that both the striking and grappling systems you study can be used in a consistent manner with each other. Oh yeh, and make sure that both the striking and grappling systems you study have some relevance for real combat as opposed to sport combat. To tie this in with another thread, its all in the kata if you look for it.

Mike

 

6th month student, which is more effective?

I think a little of each (just to have a little understanding if nothing else) but i think teaching defending/escaping close attacks such as lapel grabs, throat grabs, hair etc; training to react, this might stop you getting in striking or grappling situation in the first place.

Training to be aware can more effective than anything else! No?

 

Having only 6 months to teach somebody would totally change what I do. Its just not enough time to teach martial arts blocking to an adequate level. I’d concentrate on teaching kickboxing style fighting. With the focus on attacking. I’d be more confident of the persons abilities if they learnt to throw some good combinations of punches and kicks. Knees and elbows at short range or when somebody grabs them. Then there wouldn’t be much time left for groundfighting. Maybe try and teach the basics of not ending up on your back. And then again striking on the ground instead of locks because of the faster learning curve.

It’s a good point that Andrew Green made, how effective is learning kickboxing and judo (for example) as opposed to a style which combined both styles such as kung fu. This is basically how I’ve trained, and I don’t think you become aware of the weaknesses of a system until you learn a style that doesn’t have the weaknesses.

 

Yep, very much so. Many grappler's don't seem to be able realise how powerful strikes can be.

I'll admit to being fairly guilty of this, although I tend to get kickboxers and similar equally annoyed at me (very close ranged striking techniques, almost grappling range at times). The limit of grappling is that a lot of it trains for restraint and holds rather than simply hit and run. Very suitable for a lot of things, not necessarily for when a drunkard swings a bottle at your head while his friends look on and laugh.

There are no immunities, there's always a way to dodge, counter or slip out of a strike or grapple. If there was one technique that always worked against strikers/grapplers people would spend half of their training learning that technique, and the other half learning the other.

They're suitable for different things. Different people are suited to different things. Its like comparing a short knife with a sword, they're just not the same style. Both effective, but not the same beyond basic principles. The person with the sword will think they're more dangerous because they've got better range, the knife-holder will claim that they are since they can move inside the sword's range and then they've got free targets.

Striking and basic stand-up grappling. When people say that most fights go to the ground they're talking about ones where neither person is trained, you've all seen them before with two people rolling on the ground. Best to learn to defend yourself against the most common attacks, and then some basic blocks and strikes.

 

this is more of a question answer, butyou said the police are taught the most effective techniques in the limited time they have.

but how many thugs do you hear of who have kicked the crap outta some copper un armed? i thought the idea of police weapons was for their defense, in this case they would not need much martial training, would they?

i am not starting an arguement just trying to understand the conversation

 

For a 6 month student I would say a fair combination of both... Same I would say for anyone. You can teach decent basics in both, at least enough to gain an understanding and be able to handle themselves against the "average" attacker in 6 months if there is enough seriousness in the training.

Police here are far from taught the most effective techniques.... Most of them will admit they are screwed if it goes to a fight.

Rob

 

Re: Re: ?

Ideally I'd say yes Andrew. If you teach MA then you have a responsibility to instruct all to the same level.
Unless you've found some way of discovering who is going to leave after six months, how can you tell?
Surely it's down to what each individual wants?
Some are in it for the long haul, some just want a six month crash course in defence. How can we be professional by offering a different standard to each?

In either case, you've highlighted some important areas to cover;

"guard sweeps
escaping mount
bridge and roll
conditioning
getting and holding a mount then pounding away
leg takedowns
couple clinch takedowns
conditioning
some punches/kicks/elbows/knees
sprawling
closing into a clinch
taking the back
conditioning
lots of sparring...
... oh and lots of conditioning "

I'd perhaps add ;

Situational awareness
sucker punches
striking psychology
multiple attack scenarios

 

Re: Re: Re: ?

You've covered most techniques that need to be taught to a complete fighter, I don't think you could effectively teach these in 6 months. You'd probably end up with a fighter that knows lots of bits and pieces without enough practice to put any to effective use.

I’d concentrate on teaching a more basic system, maybe the basics of kickboxing style fighting. With the focus on attacking. I’d be more confident of the persons abilities if they learnt to throw some good combinations of punches and kicks. Knees and elbows at short range or when somebody grabs them. Then there wouldn’t be much time left for groundfighting. Maybe try and teach the basics of not ending up on your back. And then again striking on the ground instead of locks because of the faster learning curve. I wouldn’t try and teach more in 6 months, I believe trying to trying to teach too much too soon can make a fighter worse.

 

umm i hav devised a set of curriculum for my lil bro to teach him MA(as he's totally unintrested, but for self defence prespective)
i taught him only one punch,
all the blocks,
some kicking involving low kicks n middle height...
drilling on kicking and avoiding them(footwork),
drilling on chain punching,
Chi-sao n Tui shao(great things it should be taught to every one),
things like sprawling, avoid legs takedowns,
distance/timing,
then some mental excercises...
first thing all this can be taught in one month and can be drilled out for next 5 months to make sure all this works
-TkdWarrior-

 

WoW, Okay, too much for me to read all the posts, so forgive me, I will just post my feelings. If I miss anything please correct me cause as I said, I didn't read over all of the posts. Though I read the first few to get an idea, of the subject.
Anyway....I think every striker should have knowledge of grappling, and vice versa, to make them a well rounded and balleced figther. With some knowledge of both then you can fight effectivly on the ground or standing.
I don't know if someone brought this point up yet or not, but If not, there goes....Get knowledge of both. Let them work together to better your fighting skills.

 

Well said WOTD.

Those who think Kung Fu is primarily striking should do a search on Chin Na.
Those of you who are Bruce Lee Fans, look at the start of 'Enter the Dragon'. Bruce gets the big guy to tap out with some grappling stuff (by the way, look again, you'll find his opponent is Sammo Hung of 'Martial Law' fame).

 

Oh god, odn`t mention Cross training, as important as it is, and I would say it`s near invaluable, Freeform`ll never shut up.

 

There is no versus. When the gap allows strike, when the gap does not allowed grapple and choke them out or break a bone, when the opponet yeilds you do not, when the opponent resists you yield. A warrior blends within and without the fight. Grappling is a powerful art, striking is a powerful art, walking away is powerful art, do not get caught up in any one thing is the way without a way.

 

beautifully said
Now that's knowledge that could only come from south carolina
(South Carolina thingy is just a joke for sensitive readers, although we all know SC produces fine quality people)

 

REPLY!

I am interested to know everyone’s opinions on what constitutes safe & effective Self-Defence.

IN ANSWER TO THIS IT IS SIMPLE IF WHAT YOU DO MEANS YOU DON’T GET HURT THEN ITS SAFE AND WORKS – IT MAY BE AS SIMPLE AS WALKING AWAY – IT WORKS FOR ME OR IN A FIGHT YOU DO A GOOD PUNCH, THROW ETC THEN THIS IS AGAIN A GOOD WORK.

Grappling and restraint techniques as used by say the police are good, but how easy are they to apply in real life?

IF YOU PUT A DISTRACTION ON IT FIRST IE. KICK OR PUNCH OR SLAP ETC THEN THIS TAKES THE FOCUS OFF YOUR OPPONENTS RESISTING STRENGTH. IT WORKS – STANDING THERE AND PUTTING A WRISTLOCK ON SOMEONE THROWING A PUNCH IS WELL….DARN TOUGH. ITS EASIER TO SOFTEN THEM UP.

Would you happily grapple with someone when you were being attacked by more than one person.

YES BUT MERELY TO GE TTHEM TO THE FLOOR AND ME BE UP OR TO USE THEM AS A SHIELD FROM THE OTHER ATTACKERS UNTIL I KNOW WHAT IM DEALING WITH. GOING TO THE FLOOR IS A DANGERIOUS PLACE AND YOU ARE IN REAL TROUBLE IF THERE IS MORE THAN ONE ATTACKER, A JOINT LOCK WITH THE PURPOSE OF BREAKING THE JOIN WORKS BUT DON’T DWELL ON IT OR YOU ARE BROWN BREAD!!!!

Do some arts in fact teach people a load of old bilge.

YES, SADLY LOTS DO BUT YOU LIVE AN LEARN!!!!! FIND A GOOD ONE AND STICK WITH IT AS IT CAN END UP BEING A SALES TOOL FOR A LOT OF INSTRUCTORS!

Would you try and kick someone in the head?

NO – I CAN KICK HEAD HEIGHT BUT MY LOW THAI KICKS ARE FAR MORE POWERFUL AND EFFECTIVE – YOU LOSE A LOT OF POWER IN HIGH LICKS – NO MATTER WHO YOU ARE!

Has your training prepared you to strike the eyes or the throat reflexively when appropriate.

THROAT, GROIN ANY SPOT THAT WORKS, HEY ILL BITE PULL HAIR – YOU NAME IT – I ONCE HAD AN INSTRUCTOR SAY “ITS BETTER TO BE TRIED BY 12 THAN CARRIED BY 6!” IF IT COMES DOWN TO IT I WILL MAKE EM WORK FOR THERE MONEY!

SONSHU!

 

nice post sonshu,

"South Carolina thingy is just a joke for sensitive readers, although we all know SC produces fine quality people"
wayofdragon i bet u r not one of them
-TkdWarrior-

 

Hey! I resemble that comment!

 

Indupitably, dear boy

 

I isn't striking and grappling as two different things it should all be incorparted.

Strike when you grapple and grapple when you strike.

If he has a really good guard, grab his hand pull down, use the momentum to pull yourslef around to the side and smack him in the side of the head or neck, ribs or kidneys.

He leaves an opening, punch, kick, whatever then grba hold, throw him to the ground then finish off.

All the grappling techniques should be combined with strikes and the strikes should flow into a grapple.

No-one can block if they can't move the arm to block with, so move it and immobilize it. This also makes them concentrate more on freeing the hand not getting out of the way of the punch. the grab can also be a lock, grab the wrist, twist and strike then wrench the locked joint.

If your on the ground, hit the vulnerable areas, not the face if you can help it (too hard - you'll break something) whilst looking for a way out or a something to snap.

You can alos use the grab to get more power into a badly balanced strike. Pull them into that fist as you punch, it will also change the range of the strike as well.

As you go into position for a grappling hip throw (hip throw with the arm normally around the waist up alongside his neck) elbow him somewhere around the head.

This approach can also change the look of your attacks, that knife hand you telegraphed may in fact have fallen short on purpose in order grab hold of there gi or something and will also draw attentio nfrom the striking limb.
The strike in grappling will make them forget about that arm they conviently set up for a shoulder lock.