Striking vs Grappling

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Andy Murray, Feb 23, 2002.

  1. Andy Murray

    Andy Murray Sadly passed away. Rest In Peace.

    I am interested to know everyones opinions on what constitutes safe & effective Self Defence.

    Grappling and restraint techniques as used by say the police are good, but how easy are they to apply in real life?

    Would you happily grapple with someone when you were being attacked by more than one person.

    Do some arts in fact teach people a load of old bilge.

    Would you try and kick someone in the head?

    Has your training prepared you to strike the eyes or the throat reflexively when appropriate.
     
  2. waya

    waya Valued Member

    Personally I would keep myself OFF the ground because that is the worst place to end up on the street. They may have friend that would gladly come kick you in the face while you try to apply an arm bar. I wouldn't try a head kick as a normal technique, although if it's open I won't say no to it :) I prefer to strike to the body, specifically the very sensitive areas, to end the situation as quickly and decisively as possible.

    Rob
     
  3. Chazz

    Chazz Keepin it kickin TKD style

    I feel the same a rob. A good saying i use is "Going to the head in class is great, but nothing works better on the street than a low side kick to the knees." The only place to the head that i would go to would be the ear, (palm to ear, destroy ther ear drum) the eyes, (split spear hand or thumb) or the nose (palm heal or hammer fist). Other areas good to go to that i would strike, the throat (knife hand) kidney, (straight up-set punch) or knees

    Its a street fight, anything goes!

    -Chazz
     
  4. waya

    waya Valued Member

    lol My point exactly.... if ya put it too close to my face I will bite it off... I'll use any technique I can to win but I'll use them twice as hard to stay off my back
     
  5. Chazz

    Chazz Keepin it kickin TKD style

    In a fight ide use the amount of force to hurt maybe injure. but when more than one steps in. Thats when the ide use the points of the body i know to end a fight as it started.
     
  6. Pablo

    Pablo New Member

    "...Grappling and restraint techniques as used by say the police are good, but how easy are they to apply in real life? ..."

    The most effective police defensive tactics should take into account the limited training and practice time available, and rely on techniques that ARE easy to apply in realistic situations.
    On the other hand, police defensive tactics have a different goal and different restrictions than those that govern personal self defense.

    Some considerations include the fact that police are supposed to be equipped to transition from a restraint technique to a transport mode, such as handcuffs or hobbles. If a subject changes from the level of force that calls for a restraint to one that calls for deadly force (i.e. they pull out a weapon while being restrained), the police officer is trained to escalate along the use of force continuum to OC, baton or externally holstered firearm. Police also have access to communications that can summon various forms of assistance.

    How many non-law enforcement personnel, when in self defense situations, will have access to radio, handcuffs, baton, etc.?
    :D

    pablo
     
  7. Andy Murray

    Andy Murray Sadly passed away. Rest In Peace.

    Good answer Pablo.

    In the Uk we are supposed to use minimum force necessary for any given situation.

    So in the striking arts, not only do we have to judge which techniques are going to be effective. We have to judge if we can live with the repercussions of that technique....blinding, deafening, crippling or even killing.

    What may have seemed reasonable at the time, with adrenalin pumping, may be another thing the next day.

    Many of you will think this is an obvious statement, but what I am interested in is.....

    Do you come by this knowledge by your own personal studies, or is it part of the style/art that you practice?
     
  8. waya

    waya Valued Member

    Most of mine is trial by error lol. I have a tendency to live in the worst part of town because it's low cost so I can use more income etc towards my training. Now I have relatively few problems but that wasn't always so. Since becoming involved in hapkido though the training is much more centered around what really works.

    We are regulated as to how much force we can use here also, but that's the last thought on my mind when someone confronts me. Often I will make the first move when a hostile situation begins and I see no other way out (yes, I do try to avoid blows) because I would rather go to court and pay a fine than go to the hospital and be cleared of charges but be hurt or dead.

    Just my own philosophy though, by no means the right way.

    Rob
     
  9. Chazz

    Chazz Keepin it kickin TKD style

    We are tought to never use more force than what we think is needed. (easier said than done most of the time) I HATE, and i mean HATE fighting. Im the last one to ever get into a fight. But when i do have to get into one, i do what i can to end the fight as soon as possible with as less damage to me or the other person. But i always say that you should always try not to fight, find other ways to deal with anger.

    -Chazz
     
  10. Melanie

    Melanie Bend the rules somewhat.. Supporter

    I do self defence at the moment and we work off the 10 most common types of acts of violence as a starting point. Chazz has pretty much covered the areas we do:

    "The only place to the head that i would go to would be the ear, (palm to ear, destroy ther ear drum) the eyes, (split spear hand or thumb) or the nose (palm heal or hammer fist). Other areas good to go to that i would strike, the throat (knife hand) kidney, (straight up-set punch) or knees."

    I don't know if the male perspective is tainted slightly by the fact that fighting can mean so many things to men, from serious things like you or your partner being threatened to a bad football game, someone spilt your pint, etc. However, if I were attacked, I would only have one reason on my mind and defend myself accordingly. Lets face it, the chances of me defend myself properly at this time is slim! I am not highly trained or physically strong, I would bite, claw, knee, scratch, poke eyes, whatever it took for me to get away...I may still end up being raped and killed but I would have a great deal of evidence left on me to get the perpertrator.

    However, I might just freeze. I hope not....

    Melanie
     
  11. Andy Murray

    Andy Murray Sadly passed away. Rest In Peace.

    One of the best ways to avoid Freezing, is to train those reflexes Melanie, preferably in as 'real' a situation as you can. Don't know if it's just me, but I find a lot of women can be more agressive than men, I know my wife is!
     
  12. waya

    waya Valued Member

    Melanie,
    Also suggest to your instructor (or do this on your own) training your defense moves from the natural stance, standing as you would on the street. you won't have the time to take a proper stance when something happens and it will also give away the fact that you are trained which will help your attacker and hurt you in court lol.

    Rob
     
  13. Melanie

    Melanie Bend the rules somewhat.. Supporter

    Thats funny Andy...I've heard that before. That women can be considered more agressive than men. Sheesh! Who'd of thought!

    We already do our SD in normal position: If you want to check out my Sensei site, please do:

    www.ussu.net/shotokan

    Melanie
     
  14. Melanie

    Melanie Bend the rules somewhat.. Supporter

    Ok - back on track then...

    I watch before my self defence class every week Wing Chun which uses sensation of movement (sticky hands) a more 'mindful' way of grappling. However, I am not sure that I would like to be as close as that when fighting with some one. I would worry that I may not be able to reach all the vulnerable points that could bring my opponent down. I think (probably because so far my training has kept me at a distance) that I would prefer striking. My self defence has helped me with closer up manouvers but not quite grappling as yet.

    Melanie
     
  15. Chazz

    Chazz Keepin it kickin TKD style

    I know i have talked a lot about striking but the is always the other. I know that a lot of school dont teach much on the ground, and cause of that some of their students wouldnt know what to do if they were down there. I think its just as important to know how to get out of holds and traps while on the ground. It is completely different than being on your feet. (good example: play fighting with a brother/sister/parent is always hard to get away once the get you down)

    just my thoughts
    -Chazz
     
  16. waya

    waya Valued Member

    I agree, it's important to learn what to do once you get to the ground. Inevitably alot of fights will go there. Myself I train what I need to know to get off my back and return to my feet but I do work with ground techniques so I am not totally lost lol.

    Rob
     
  17. Chazz

    Chazz Keepin it kickin TKD style

    My personal ideas are if you have to fight, make it quick, do the least damage to you, others or property, stay on your feet, if on the ground do what you can to get up. If all possible, walk away

    Chazz
     
  18. Andy Murray

    Andy Murray Sadly passed away. Rest In Peace.

    I was watching the first three UFC tapes a while back, where Hoyce Gracie, basically took out everyone with grappling techniques from Gracie Ju Jitsu. He made a lot of guys look silly, even breaking one guys arm.

    I was a bit annoyed by the event, as it said there are no rules, yet there was no biting or eye gouging allowed. But hey I suppose it's a little hard to break someones arm if you can't see them, or they have their teeth sunk into your genitals!

    Any thoughts?
     
  19. waya

    waya Valued Member

    lol that's why I don't like being on my back... Grappling in the ring is good.... on the street it could be a fatal mistake.
     
  20. Andy Murray

    Andy Murray Sadly passed away. Rest In Peace.

    missed post

    I somehow missed Melanies last post, and just wanted to clarify a point. The Wing Chun system is close contact, but Sticking hands is only a training exercise, not grappling. The idea of sticking hands is to increase sensitivity to physical contact from different angles, eg.

    Someone puts their hand on your shoulder from behind. If you take the time to try and turn your head to seee them, it may be too late. If, by feeling the pressure, you can tell that it is say their right hand, you may be able to 'feel' where they are standing, and initiate your defenses more immediately.

    Just as no two punches are mechanically the same, no two blocks can be the same. Chi Sau trains you to deflect strikes rather than block the energy, and the Wing Chun system always throws a counter back as or just after you have deflected.

    The system does use grabs though, so I understand where you get the grappling thing from Mel.
     

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