Stretching in a 'warm up' - to do or not?

Discussion in 'Health and Fitness' started by Maverick, Feb 28, 2006.

  1. Blake_AE

    Blake_AE Valued Member

    Has anyone determined how much less response the muscle will be, and how much static stretching results in what type of performance degredation? And where are you going to notice it - 100% effort? 95% effort?

    I dunno. In all my time in TKD doing static stretches before techniques in class, I did not see anyone suffer an injury. Maybe they could have kicked faster but I have my doubts it would be noticeable. I also have a strong belief it would be as high, as easily, had the static stretching not been there.

    In Muay Thai we do very little static stretching and my flexibility and kicking height has suffered. You say there is very little carry over. I say in my experience, static stretching allowed me to kick higher than not static stretching. Despite the studies saying there is little carry-over, I have to disagree. It would seem to me that max flexibility gained through static stretching would be similar to max VO2, or max strength.

    Max VO2 has a direct carry over to endurance running which is always sub-maximal. Max strength has a direct carry over to speed strength and endurance strength. Max flexibility has a direct carry-over to dynamic flexibility.

    I'm glad you are replying, I'm not here to be a punk arguing on the net. I'm just discussing experience vs. studies.
     
  2. TheCount

    TheCount Happiness is a mindset

    My warmup IS stretching usually. Before I go for a run I have a quick stretch and go. Purely to loosen my muscles, from there on im sorted
     
  3. succubus

    succubus so hot right now

    ok. total clueless n00b here, and this may be a question other people are asking too so:

    what's the difference between static and dynamic stretching?
     
  4. wynnema

    wynnema Valued Member

    "for several seconds following any type of static stretch you cannot display your top agility or maximal speed because your muscles are less responsive to stimulation—your coordination is off. Static stretches reduce the force production of the stretched muscles. This was shown by several studies. Subjecting calf muscles to several 30-second stretches reduces their force afterwards (Rosenbaum and Hennig 1995). Three 15-second stretches of the hamstrings, quadriceps, and calf muscles reduced the peak vertical velocity of a vertical jump in the majority of subjects (Knudson et al. 2000). Maximal force production is impaired for several minutes after strenuous static stretching. Kokkonen et al. (1998) showed that maximal force in knee flexion declined on the average by 7.3% and in knee extension by 8.1% after static stretching even though 10–15 minutes passed between stretching and the strength test"

    well obviously it would be better than not stretching at all - and static stretching is useful, it is the sequence of stretching in a workout that is important - and the topic of this thread is static stretches in a warm up. Static stretches belong at the end during cool down when you muscles are fully warmed up and you can working on increasing your static ROM. Doing static stretches before a workout that consists of dynamic actions is counterproductive. The goals of the warm-up are: an increased alertness, improved coordination, improved elasticity and contractibility of muscles, and greater efficiency of the respiratory and cardiovascular systems. Static stretches, isometric or relaxed, just do not fit in a warm-up.

    Well then i guess you were lucky. the increased risk of injury may be minimal but why risk it.

    Well I dont know, this is an entirely different comparison. There are several people at my club who can do full splits yet cant kick higher than their shoulder - why - because they have poor dynamic flexiblity. Also working on dynamic flexiblty allows yuo to display your maximal flexibility without a warm up which is useful in a street situation. I would imagine you have to do lots of pre-stretching before you can throw any high kicks. Again this goes back to the right kind of stretching for kicks.
     
  5. Blake_AE

    Blake_AE Valued Member

    I am agreeing with you in regards to static stretching detrimental to max performance right after, but I think it has an insignificant carryover to most martial arts classes. We never did the splits then jumped up immediately to throw the hardest kicks we could. We usually did kata after our stretching, and then light contact drills. It was most always longer than 15 minutes between stretching and any 100% effort.

    Also - the muscles getting most of the attention in the static stretches are antagonist muscles, not prime movers for kicks.

    Lets take a TKD roundhouse as an example. Chamber, extend, snap, return to chamber, return to stance. Hip flexors, abs and quads would be the prime movers, wouldn't they - primarily quads for the force of the kick as they straighten the leg once it is lifted. The quads are also the least static stretched muscle in any class I've been to. Normally focus is put on hams and groin.

    It has been shown that static stretching the hip flexor improves vertical jump for this very reason.

    So, I don't disagree with what you are saying, but if someone asks if its ok to do it during the warm-up in class, I would answer yes, as long as the muscles are warmed up. And no if they are doing it right before a competition.
     
  6. wynnema

    wynnema Valued Member

    the fact you did patterns/forms straight after would give your body chance to do some fairly light dynamic movements its not the best warm up schedule but it isnt bad. if you had gone straight into kicking (like a lot of classes) then maybe there would have been more problems.

    With regards to quads, very few people will have quads that need to be stretched vs say the hamstring. Due to their size they are strong. Strong muscles = more flexible.
     
  7. Blake_AE

    Blake_AE Valued Member

    My quads were pathetic to begin with and have, until recently been really tight. Desk job, go figure.

    Really enjoyed the thread, Wyn. Thanks!
     
  8. flaming

    flaming Valued Member

    Static: stretch then hold in stretched position for 20-30 seconds.

    Dynamic: moving through greatest range of rom only using the antagonist muscles. Eg high kicks.

    Do dynamic then static.
     
  9. Gingerbread Man

    Gingerbread Man New Member

    So coming back to my original question (which was admittedly not entirely in keeping with the thread)......

    If I have 5-10mins, two or three times per day, hidden away from anybody else......what could I do to improve flexibility. Is it OK to go straight into dynamic stretches or is it essential to warm up first - in which case how do I do that in a room (for making tea) that you couldnt swing a cat in.

    Any wisdom welcome.....
     
  10. Blake_AE

    Blake_AE Valued Member

    My advice... take it with a grain of salt.

    If all you have is 5mins at a time in a broom closet, the best you could probably do is focus on not losing flexibility during the day. Hop, skip jump up and down for 30 seconds, get your blood flowing. Do a set of 10 bodyweight squats. Do some toe touches. Grab each foot (one at time) and pull it up behind you, arch your back and push your hips forward with your foot pulled up to stretch the quads and hip flexor. Put your feel shoulder width apart, hands on hips and do hip rotations.

    Simple stuff. Try to go through your full range of motion, but don't worry about pushing it too much. You can't get too complicated in 5 minutes and no space. Keep your body active and moving as much as possible. Focus on static stretches and improving flexibility when you have some more time to warm up well, do multiple sets of stretches, and have more space.
     

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