Looks like the following video was just posted: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGj7p1M1cz0"]YouTube - KJN Hand Form 2008[/ame] (In case the video itself goes away... seems to have moved at least once... the transcription of the quotations can be found here: http://www.stpaulksw.com/blog/194/quotes-video-master-sung-jin/) On the video itself, very nice. The pictures were great, the packaging of the pictures and quotes, all nicely done. That said, one thing kept coming up in the quotations that I'd like clarification on: "stop". "Stop leads the hyung" (1st practice principle) "Practicing with stops refines your power. One who goes fast, and the form still looks good, has been practicing correctly." "Stop longer is correct practice. Concentrate on every basic principle and technique and eventually get there fast." "Before practice, do not make too many plans. If you have too many expectations, you will burn out before you even start. Just think about every stop. Think about principles and techniques. Then you will enjoy practice and time goes fast." What is KJN meaning by "stop"?
Quite literally he is saying to stop, and hold position, after completing the hand motions associated with a stance. Sounds so simple but the benifits of training the way he teaches are fantastic. The more you practice the form the shorter the stops become. Eventually it looks like there are no stops, but the form does not feel hurried no matter how fast it is going overall.
Don't feel bad, as myself and quite a few others during a presentation not too long ago, given by KJN SJ Suh, were somewhat discombobulated by the use of this term. The best way I know of to help explain it is to go with the way I was taught to do the first part of Cho Geup Hyung. Holding each stance for a second or two is called Jase Sogye - 자세소계 (it literally does mean to hold each posture for a brief moment). Obviously, the aim in doing this with CGH is to teach good balance as there are quite a few one-legged stances in that first part (before taking the forward moving steps). But precision with the various postures throughout all our hyung is the aim of practicing with "stops." Too many people tend to slop through the movements when doing their forms, and this (i.e. using stops) is one way to correct this problem. Although the idea to do forms 4 times (once in each compass direction) has become so popular as to become the norm, the "traditional" way to practice hyung was to always face the "front" of the school (where the flags usually are). When outside, the stipulation was to always start facing north. Believe me, if you practice this way, then when it comes time to learn Joong Geup Hyung, doing the second half is much, much more difficult than for those who've been practicing 4 directions since KCH. Also, this "traditional" method I originally learned stipulated that the minimum practice for each hyung was twice rather than four times. One time you would practice slow (and low!) to develop better precision (just like with using stops) and the other time you would go continuously from start to finish, not necessarily fast but concentrating more on smoothness and good connection of one movement with the next. Ultimately, as you progressed with this dual type of training with each hyung, you were expected to converge the two different executions into an exemplary method of execution, as far as yourself was concerned. A few years ago, when GM IHS started pushing the DVDs during seminar, he had everyone doing the hyung really, really fast. Sloppy wasn't frowned upon as long as you went blazingly fast. I think he was trying to make people realize that memory (both the mental acuity as well as muscle/coordination memory) can't be achieved if you always do hyung "step by step." Personally, I think that if people were told to practice using the two tenets I outlined above, rather than pressuring the masses to embrace whichever one seemed absent amongst them, would be a be a better way to get results. :dunno: Hopefully, this made some sense to you and anyone else in doubt about how to achieve their own "perfection" when doing hyung.
Of course it's as simple as it sounds. Isn't that always the case Y'know I went back and found my copy of KJN doing Ki Cho Hyung (it was you YouTube for a while but I cannot find it there now). I could see how he was stopping... he wasn't, but he was. Light bulb goes on in my head. What I still don't get is "Stop leads the hyung". Is he saying that's the first/primary thing to focus on when practicing hyung? Or that stopping is what helps hyung to go (as contradictory as that sounds)?
Yes, it made sense. Thank you for posting it. As I think on my own hyung practice, I have practiced "stops" before, but never formally... just sometimes I'll pause a bit with each stance because I'm working on balance or just trying to work on each motion, but never really considered it as a greater practice principle. So this makes me look at it with reneweed emphasis, which is cool. At my school the 4 directional thing is very common, and 2 directional is common as well, but often just as a variation on the theme -- it's not done with the emphasis that you mentioned (slow, then smooth). And yes, sometimes we'll go wicked fast, sometimes wicked slow. But while the motions may be similar, it's the mental outlook on the endeavor that is different here. It's given me new things to chew on.
What is KJN meaning by "stop"?[/QUOTE] i am with you, i do not quite understand his meaning behind stop. as my teacher has taught me, and i have heard gm suh himself say that you should not have pauses in your hyung. gm suh ( at one of his seminars long ago) stated that hyung does not translate to form. it translates to connected movement. the theory behind his hyung law is very in depth and i don't want to get into such a lengthy discussion, but i do know i have heard he himself state that there should not be pauses in the hyung. of course i also realize that kjn suh is not his father and that people interpret things in their own way with their own "character" in what they do, no matter their occupation. no two doctors are the same. but i do think that there is an underlying principle behind movement that is to be understood. someone should ask him what his meaning behind stop is and then maybe it would be understood the point he is trying to get across.
I'm in no way experienced enough to give too much input here. However, I did want to say that I think using the "stops" provides a chance to be more aware of your body on a concious level? It takes me a bit longer to learn things I think and I like to do things very slowly and precise at first, second stage slow feet fast hands. Last dynamically. I have to learn hyung in complete detail the first time though or I'm in for it. I really like this vid. Thanks for posting it. So much to work on eh?
WOW. *That* is using the web to teach. FWIW, I would interpret the "stop" as precision, or perhaps a precursor to it. That we need to focus our strikes. As for how we practice hyung, what I recall is much like COC posts. Sometimes we'd go slow and detailed, sometimes we'd go as fast as we could, sometimes two or four directions. Often we'd work on one of the five principles. And one person suggested practicing on sand . I don't ever recall being told to practice forms twice, once slow and the other connected. I was told black belt practice would be each form four times.
Ok, being as I'm the one that asked the original question I'm probably not the right person to try to answer this. BUT, if in fact I'm seeing what he's meaning, maybe I can shed some light (and verify if I am seeing what he's meaning). The following video is NOT the video I was referring to, but it does contain some relevant snippets: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzmLTs8STK0"]YouTube - Kuk Sool Mix: Sung Jin Suh[/ame] If you look at around 0:26 into the video you'll see KJN in something like a school gym performing Ki Cho Hyung (part 1 in this case). If you watch the rest of the video, you'll see other snippets from the same performance (based on his dress and the location/background). If you just watch KCH-1 there, you'll see little stops: turn long stance (pause), front kick set down (pause), block cover punch (pause), turn horse stance soo do (pause), inside kick set down (pause), etc. Now, I am getting the feeling that is the very thing being discussed here -- stopping. But in the same video, watch KJN's "fast hands" form. No pausing. But the compare it to his current performances of Oon Hak Hyung... still no stopping in terms of a distinct pause, but based upon what KJN says the stopping does, you can see how it leads into every motion/stance being distinct and crisp. So, I don't think it's contrary to what KSN is saying... the forms are still flowing, there still is technically no pause. But by using pausing during practice sessions, you improve the performance of the form itself because there's emphasis on each little chunk instead of smearing it all into one long movement (if you will). Eventually you reduce the pauses to nothing, yet the segments of stances remain distinctive because of the pausing in practice... the little distinctive chunks remain, just there's no empty space between them, thus it all flows and now looks even better. I hope I'm conveying this well.... and of course, I hope that I'm understanding it all in the first place.
Y'know, that's another thing that you can see, both directly and indirectly in the quotes from KJN. There's often so much emphasis put on kicking and barely any put on hands. But from how he was quoted, he seems to put emphasis on hands. The practice principles list "power hands" and "look straight ahead or at your hands"... no mention of kicking (only "foot" related thing is low stance). Punch is always lower than shoulder, etc.... again, details of hands, not feet. Of course, these are picked quotes and being the accomplished kicker he is, I'm sure he has a lot to say on kicking as well. But it was just refreshing to see some actual talk of hand work (since I tend to prefer using my hands to using my feet). I'm going to guess that comes from Textbook 3, intro to Baek Pahl Ki Hyung:
not knockiing kjn sung jin, just saying, in the form as i have been taught and have heard gm suh himself say, there is NO pausing in the form. i even had a joke made to me by my teacher asking if i was posing for a picture. the form should be continuous. if he is pausing, maybe it is for show or teaching something. i know the hyung (ki cho thru dae geup as they are taught now because they are not the same as the origional ones gm suh taught) were altered by the old masters of kuk sool to be more "tournament competetive", so maybe kjn sung jin has his reasons for his pausing. you should ask him sometime for his meaning. and i apologize in advance, but personally, i do not care for his fast hand form for several reasons i won't get into. it amazes me all the complexity and confusion people put into the martial arts. i mean, how much is there if you break it down? all ANY martial art has are 3 techniques. if you break it down to its simplist form, it ain't that hard. look at the movements in oon hak hyung, they are virtually the same as ki cho, just rearranged a little different with lower stances. but everyone looks at the chart and sees a differtent hyung for each level and what ,226 tech below black belt. if you look at each tech., it is just a replica of ki bon soo except the location and situation of the tech. changes position. you go from a standing apart set to a wrist grab to an inside wrist grab to a clothing grab etc etc etc. but you are not going to find a technique (for now lets exclude maek chi gi and maek cha gi) that is not one of the 15 ki bon soo techniques. i.e. cha sa jang 1 is the same as ki bon soo 6.
[If you look at around 0:26 into the video you'll see KJN in something like a school gym performing Ki Cho Hyung (part 1 in this case). If you watch the rest of the video, you'll see other snippets from the same performance (based on his dress and the location/background). If you just watch KCH-1 there, you'll see little stops: turn long stance (pause), front kick set down (pause), block cover punch (pause), turn horse stance soo do (pause), inside kick set down (pause), etc. Now, I am getting the feeling that is the very thing being discussed here -- stopping. But in the same video, watch KJN's "fast hands" form. No pausing. But the compare it to his current performances of Oon Hak Hyung... still no stopping in terms of a distinct pause, but based upon what KJN says the stopping does, you can see how it leads into every motion/stance being distinct and crisp. So, I don't think it's contrary to what KSN is saying... the forms are still flowing, there still is technically no pause. But by using pausing during practice sessions, you improve the performance of the form itself because there's emphasis on each little chunk instead of smearing it all into one long movement (if you will). Eventually you reduce the pauses to nothing, yet the segments of stances remain distinctive because of the pausing in practice... the little distinctive chunks remain, just there's no empty space between them, thus it all flows and now looks even better. I hope I'm conveying this well.... and of course, I hope that I'm understanding it all in the first place.][/QUOTE] not knockiing kjn sung jin, just saying, in the form as i have been taught and have heard gm suh himself say, there is NO pausing in the form. i even had a joke made to me by my teacher asking if i was posing for a picture. the form should be continuous. if he is pausing, maybe it is for show or teaching something. i know the hyung (ki cho thru dae geup as they are taught now because they are not the same as the origional ones gm suh taught) were altered by the old masters of kuk sool to be more "tournament competetive", so maybe kjn sung jin has his reasons for his pausing. you should ask him sometime for his meaning. and i apologize in advance, but personally, i do not care for his fast hand form for several reasons i won't get into. it amazes me all the complexity and confusion people put into the martial arts. i mean, how much is there if you break it down? all ANY martial art has are 3 techniques. if you break it down to its simplist form, it ain't that hard. look at the movements in oon hak hyung, they are virtually the same as ki cho, just rearranged a little different with lower stances. but everyone looks at the chart and sees a differtent hyung for each level and what ,226 tech below black belt. if you look at each tech., it is just a replica of ki bon soo except the location and situation of the tech. changes position. you go from a standing apart set to a wrist grab to an inside wrist grab to a clothing grab etc etc etc. but you are not going to find a technique (for now lets exclude maek chi gi and maek cha gi) that is not one of the 15 ki bon soo techniques. i.e. cha sa jang 1 is the same as ki bon soo 6.
Best I can say is, it's a practice principle... based on the quotations from KJN. Given the video, it's a demo. I figure he's trying to show something in particular. Just what I don't know. If I ever get the chance to talk with him about it, I certainly will. I agree. I recall talking with KJN Marlin Sims about this very thing. Certainly you can find truly different techniques along the way, but more or less yes the body only works in so many ways and so there's truly only so many things you can do and so many of the techs are the same things over and over. I often feel that if you know Ki Bohn Soo well, that's about all you need. I don't deny what you're saying. Why so complex? You'll have to ask KSN why exactly he organized curriculum like he did. Getting back on topic tho, I can certainly see how using "stops" as a practice technique can improve performance of hyung. It helps to make movements distinct instead of blending everything into one big mush. I can't say that when "performing" the hyung we should look like we're "doing the robot", but as a way of practicing I think I can see the technique.
We covered Guhm Moo Hyung in the seminars we have had over here over the last week and it is clear from that and the way he did of it in the demo that they want us to focus on fluidity and speed now. The 'stop' thing is very important in my opinion. In the past years we have focussed on training with stop, KJN Sung Jin would always teach with the 'finish hands' principle: do your step/kick into the next stance, then finish all your hand motions before you make the next step. This to me is the 'stop' principle, it's just making sure you don't move your hands and feet at the same time generally. Me and my peers have worked hard on making our forms like this and we have got a LOT better for it in my opinion. A criticism of us though has been that we have maybe become a bit too clinical in the way we do things now. I think the way we were taught this week is the next step, basically removing the stops and making it more fluid and less clinical. I think if you don't train with 'stop' beforehand though, your forms will always be lacking in quality. Maintaining the quality and making things more fluid and fast is definitely my next step and I reckon it won't be easy!
you miss my point. 1) i have to disagree with you on using the stops as a useful practice tool. your body reacts to the way you have trained it, no matter what people think. simple fact is... you react to the way you train. you train improperly, you perform improperly. if i practice spelling the word cat with a k.... KAT a gazillion times, will i get a 100 on my spelling test? 2) there are no "truly different" techniques along the way. you have only (3) you can perform. 3) gm suh does not make the chart complex. we as practitioners looking for the ultimate answer do. again, gm suh ain't got but 3 techniques. it is not that complicated. WE make it so. 4) you speak of distinct movement. why? when you go to the door to open it, do you jump down into a low stance, tense up, grab the **** as if you are going to squeeze the life out of it, sling the door open, and then walk thru unmolested? OR do you simply walk to the door grasp the **** and open the door in a single motion? i know, i know, that is a little extreme, but the point i am making is what ever movement you are making, you don't " stop " to perform it. martial arts are about utilizing your natural body movement. if i am running, i don't "stop" to go around a corner. if i am throwing a baseball, my arm doesn't "stop" as soon as the ball leaves my hand or if i am batting, my swing does not stop as soon as the ball hits my bat. anyway, i don't think a hyung should be practiced with start and stops. it goes against natural body mechanics, but to each his own. i think you should still ask him what it is he means by "stop". especially after his father has indicated the opposite of what he is saying. couple of things in that video do not make sense according to body mechanics, physics, or things gm suh has taught on in the past. hmmmm, makes ya wonder.
I think it is important to distinguish between the path to the goal and the goal itself. I don't think KJN Suh is trying to change the goal as defined by his father. I think he is trying to define a path that if you follow it you will reach the "top of the mountain". Using this analogy there are many paths to the top of the mountain, and many ways you could choose teach a student to get there. You could just tell the student what to do and leave it up to them to find the path. This will work with some, but others will wander aimlessly. Do forms low one time then smooth the next is one step on the way to providing a path, but in my opinion it is not sufficient. How do you get to smooth with power? I think practicing with stops is a great way. When we practice our forms ridiculously fast we prove that we know what we are doing. We can do the form thoughtlessly. Then by stopping at the end of each technique we can focus on the how, because we have time. The more you practice the less time you need in the stop. In short stops lead to mindful of the form. In most hyung stops are placed at the end of the hand transitions within a stance. I think this is due to the abstract nature of the hyung. Placing stops at the end of the technique would define the technique and hence abstractness would be lost. The hand form is different. The 40 stops of the hand form are at the end of each technique, which in many cases includes stance transitions.
The videos I've seen of master SJS performing, show that his training, IMO are correct. And the spelling test analogy is weak. I doubt the grand master of Kuk Sool Won has but 3 techniques. If I were going to take Korean Martial Arts training direction from someone, it would most definitely be from master SJS before it would be from an angry woman with a bone to pick. FWIW. I said KSW was like a private school, but it's more like a small town.
if you are doing ki cho hyung part 1 do you go straight from kong kyuk jah se, throw out a front kick, land and block, cover, punch? if so how do you know your feet are in the correct position, that your front leg is 90 degrees, back leg straight, inside block has come round and not up, high block is higher than eye level, but not too high. right fist is on the hip, palm up, and that your front punch comes out straight and finishes at the centre of your chest? all this without mentioning the hand transition from kong kyuk jah se to joong gool jah se, the angle of your back, where you are looking etc etc to do all this means you must stop for a few seconds between each movement, check and adjust and then continue. either that or your form will look sloppy, which i believe is what master sung jin is trying to say.
you misunderstand me maybe. it IS NOT correct to practice the form incredebly fast. it should be smooth. you can do the hyung slow and low (this is an extremely good way to practice). hyung means connected movement,there fore it is not meant to be practiced with stops. one movement leads to another. slow as a turtle is great, great, great. STOPPING is wrong. and the hand form? please. every one claps and claps over that thing. have you really watched it? i reserve my own opinion, but i think everyone is lead to believe it is great because it is kuk sa nims son performing it, therefore it HAS to be amazing. but anyway, thats another subject entirely. in a fight, are you going to punch at the guy and stop and give it thought, then maybe do a knifehand and stop and give it thought? that is ludicrus. again, YOU REACT THE WAY YOU TRAIN. you can keep spelling cat kat, but it still ain't going to get you an A. and from a ki standpoint, ki should flow, not stop, like a river. your continous movement keeps ki and blood flowing. stop and start, start and stop ain't going top move your ki. practice the way you may, more power to ya, but stopping is not correct. better yet, don't ask sung jin, ask granmaster suh himself. if he says you should stop and start, i'll change my view. but i bet ya he would tell you stopping and starting is WRONG.
