slap hi i aint posted for a while but i think kenpoist has got it clearest in my opinion , kenpo is a complex art , far beyond most people's understanding . all at once you have a practitioner activateing several complex principle's , body massing , body bouncing ( rebounding / SLAPPING!!!!) maybe frictional drag , maybe in return.comined with some angles of deception , to take advantage of those zones of sancturary, ect you can go on . in my opinion mr tatum is one of the top kenpoists in the world and if he says slap then i'll slap .
slaps THE SLAPS ARE TO ONESELF NOT THE OPPONENT! Have you every seen a traditional demonstration of pencak silat? If you have you'll see why the slaps! First off the slapping when done properly works to confuse the opponent, noise and a flurry of very fast movements - much like when a dog barks, The effect on the opponent is to make him seize up, close up as it were. His guard would become more compact to defend the upper body most likely - strike his knees or attack low. If he drops lower launch an aerial attack! The other reason for the slaps is that most of the energy is trapped in one's thighs - slapping releases the energy and lets the adrenalin flow. As for slapping on the return, that would be true if you also delivered a strike at the same time. If you like to see an example I'll send you a link. Best wishes, Milamber
Re: Stomping & Slapping Stomping and slapping isn't something unique to Kenpo. It is also found in the BaJi Chuan style of Internal Kung Fu. Stamping the feet creates a "sudden root", sinking your center and creating a firm base from which to attack. Slapping one's self is found commonly through the forms in BaJi Chuan, and I believe it is used as a method of increasing the flow of internal energy. http://www.monashwushu.com/~nuke/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=getit&lid=77 This video link shows a demonstration of a BaJi form, with a lot of stamping and slapping. (Right click and choose "save as")
Milamber> Yes (I will commonly slap my self - sounds odd doesn't it). Rebounding my power into the next strike - returning a strike into a check etc... I also like the other response - used to confuse the attacker. I will also you an oddly timed kiyai (SP) to startle or a less powerful strike (punch the foot on an incoming kick - back knuckle to the hand on a wrist grab from and attacker) to throw off an attacker. This will give you a small window to break the concentration of an attacker and close in to finish them off. As a former law enforcement officer - I can tell you that this stuff works! :woo:
TeJitsuDo compared stomping to "sudden root", in Kenpo it may look like stomping, but settlement is the desired effect and I think that settling and sudden root may be the same or at least similar things.
Stomping or how ever the explanation - it is a transfer of power if done properly. Instead of slapping ones self as stated with slapping - why not instead of actually making contact have the circle continue without interupption. I have not ever doubted kenpo's effectiveness. I have questioned the training in some aspects. I still cant understand the whole making contact with yourself while returning a strike to Check or anything else. honestly my opinion is just that its wasting motion. to much energy wasted. the comment about circulation you should be able to do that with out hitting yourself. internal energy can be manipulated without hitting yourself to better circulation. Salute, ST
your opinion is interesting, and motion should not be wasted. But I don't see how allowing my arm to make a complete circle is less motion (or mroe efficient) that truncating that circle by impacting my own body. Also, without making the contact, the mechanism described here is not in play... In Kempo it is never just one thing.
I thought I addressed this in my previous post, but read it again and left it out of what i wanted to say. The Chu'an Fa employs lighter and heavier power strikes chained together. Accuracy and speed is important with the strikes for optimum effectiveness. Power is important too but not with all the strikes, just some of the strikes. Good technique means more power for the strikes but like the boxer's jab, not every hit is using the full force of the body. For instance, many strikes will use body mechanics and whip like techniques to generate the damage and these strikes will be combined with other more powerful techniques that use the full rotation of the torso and the legs. So to look at what is really going on, do not look at the slapping hand, look at the part of the body that is not stomping or slapping. The part of the body that is NOT stomping or slapping is STRIKING the opponent. For instance, 1. If I stomp the ground with my right foot, at the same time my right ARM is striking with a right forearm. 2. After I strike with a right forearm, then I recoil my right hand to slap my left shoulder, at the same time I slap my left shoulder, my LEFT hand is striking underneath to the ribs of the opponent. 3. Then I recoil my left hand and slap across my thigh, at the same time my RIGHT elbow is striking the opponent. 4. I continue my left hand around in a circle, flicking the eyes of the opponent with my right hand... then execute a double palm strike just below the colar bone of the opponent. So count the hits by the slaps/stomps. One stomp, two slaps, that's three hits in a combination, followed by a flick to the eyes and a double palm smash. There is NO wasted motion. But realize that not all the strikes are using full power, only really the first and last strike are utilizing a high amount of power, the rest are like jabs trying to hit vital points.
There are no one hit kills in Kenpo, meaning each and every strike in kenpo sets you up for the subsequent strike. Take this technique for example: The attacker comes in for a right roundhouse punch (hook punch) with the rear foot stepping through with the punch. The defender intercepts the punch, stepping forward into a right neutral bow stance, and blocking with both hands. The right hand moves from the block, into a hand sword to the attackers neck, the right hand then drops down, at a 45 degree angle, the defender "slaps" his own abdomen in preparation for the next strike, while at the same time executing a claw strike to the face of the attacker with the left hand. The claw strike follows through "slapping" the defenders own shoulder, while executing a backfist to the attackers abdomen. The left hand, then from the shoulder executes another handsword while the right hand follows through from the backfist, the right hand is raised high making a fist, you then go into a forward bow stance while doing the hand sword and preparing for the final hammer strike to the face with the right hand, and dropping back into a right neutral bow stance. In this particular technique there are two instances where the defender "slaps" himself. The "slaps" are used for timing, however fast you move the non attacking hand the other hand will move just as fast. It is also used for "economy of motion." When you do one strike why would you just stop in mid-air and then go back the other direction for another strike? Kenpo doesn't use big exagerrated circular motions, like many kung fu styles. So, it relies instead on rebounding. The third reason, is you are rebounding the hand off of yourself. I like to use this term more than slapping, because slapping implies that you are doing it for no particular reason, but when you "rebound" off of yourself, you are using the momentum of the previous strike to bounce the hand off of yourself and then redirecting the energy back to the attacker. So, they are not just merely "slapping" themselves to "sound cool." And the change from a neutral bow stance to a forward bow stance and back to a neutral bow, might explain the stomping, but someone already described the reason for that quite well.
OK, now here is where everyone still isnt getting it or maybe im not getting it. If energy is going in one direction and stopped to redirect (REBOUND) in another direction it is not building with momentum it is stopping the momentum for a moment and redirecting with less force and energy. a percentage of energy in the first strike is lost in hitting the body of oneself. Although it seems to the untrained person and eventually programed into the practitioner that its better to REBOUND the strike (not so) if you throw that aside and shift or coil with the strikes you will eventually see that you over the course of the "technique" gain speed along with power with your strikes. REBOUNDING as i have seen and tried to do it, Works against the bodies natural movement.
I've never been told what the "slapping/stomping" in Kenpo was for, but my Ninpo teachers have. In Ninpo, a slap or stomp is often used to distract or draw the attacker's attention elsewhere. In most Ninpo techniques, only one stomp or slap is used. However, in Kenpo the slapping can often create a "stacato", repeating sound. Perhaps this was meant to create a distracting element for the opponent? May you achieve Satori
Would that work against you? I don't think it would impair me at all... Hey what about this: On the return path (bringing the first Right-armed strike back to my body), I'm firing biceps and pec (right side), but in just a coupla smilliseconds, I'm gonna be firing their antagonists...scapular retractors, shoulder abductors & extensors, and elbow extensors. Rather then slowing the whole thing down before letting it land on me, I can let it collide, allowing the inbound tension to die. This lets me get it to my "chambered" position a wee bit quicker, since I'm not bothering to slow it down. Let's make it better: I'll add some force (into my self-strike). Any time I really stress an agonist, the antagonist is reflexively attenuated...this means by slapping myself with a biceps/pec contraction, I've already placed a pre-tension in the triceps and outer shoulder muscles...I'm revving the engine, but haven't yet popped the clutch. get it??? -David
Sometimes in Kenpo you slap, sometimes you don't. (What an answer, huh ) Here's some of the guys I work out with once in awhile and they do a bit of the slapping, if I remember right they refer to it as a 'transfer of force'. http://www.americankenpobu-jutsu.com/ If you'll scroll down a bit, they have some mpegs from various attacks and whatnot; you'll see some techniques involve some "slapping" and some do not.
In October I hosted Professor Ron Chapel to come to Omaha and teach us about sub level 4 kenpo. This style is the king of slapping and stomping and I finally got the real info straight from teh hores mouth. The slaps to your own body serve, at the basic level of knowledge, 3 purposes, generally. One is to change the alignment of the skeletal structure and supporting muscles tendons etc so taht they are properly recruited into the following strike. It is more complicated than that but that is how I understood it. Secondly, the slapping is a safety mechanism to prevent your own hyperextension. So at the full extension of a back fist your other hand slaps the front of the shoulder, this prevents the shoulder from straining. Third, the slaps are used to "reconnect" the parts of your body so that it all works together as a whole. Doc Chapel was able to show us how even one finger out of alignment can weaken a structure. We worked thorugh some stances and techniques and examined how the proper slap can get your lower body and upper body back in touch with each other. It's hard to write aobut, easy to demonstrate. Stomping is similar to the 3rd slapping, above. After moving your foot, stomp it. Greatly increases the stability of the stance. Combined with the slapping, indexing, and head movements... the effect is amazing. I will try to post some video I ahve been sent that shows some of this. try this http://media.putfile.com/Sword-and-Hammer -david
Slapping is commonly done by a teacher when students are following the teacher’s movements. The slap is used instead of a verbal command to change position. So the teacher would slap change position, slap change position. On hearing the slap the student knows to quickly follow the teacher’s movements. It’s the traditional way many martial arts are taught. It also helps to confuse an opponent as stated before, a bit like a shout can cause an opponent to lock up. The statement that most of the energy in a human is trapped or stored in the thighs can’t be correct. Most of the energy is stored at the dan tian under the navel not the legs. In fact I studied Qi gong for many years and I never heard that statement before. As far as I know most the energy is in the kidneys and dan tian. Even if it was in the thighs would slapping release it?
What you say is true Narrue, but I am thinking the slapping of oneself and stomping on the ground referred to in this thread is specific to what is seen in certain schools of kenpo. This slapping and stomping is taught as part of the technique. I also feel that although there is a science to it, there is too much explaining going on. It isn't in the science of how it is done but in the experience of doing it that makes it practical. CHA-3 Kenpo used slapping and stomping. These guys went full contact in class and on the streets. Often knockouts occurred in class. Black belts beat up the white belts... At the end of class, they would shake hands and leave all that behind. Although an important consideration, there is more to it than the science or body mechanics involved in the techniques. What is a street fight like? Seldom do you have ten minutes to warm up... you are coming into it cold and maybe angry and scared. Have you ever slapped yourself to get your body moving in a hurry? As if the impact on your own body is some wake up call to keep things real and ready to be hit and to hit someone else. Ever see great apes beating their chests? This is not exact science, it is animal instinct to release the chemicals for a fight. It can shock your mind and body into combat. And it can be intimidating. Don't over complicate things by trying to justify everything as if it is an exact science. There is no one right way, but there is human nature.
The reason people slap themselves and rub themselves when it is cold is simply to increase blood circulation to the skin. Ever been blasted with a football on a cold day? It leaves a nice red mark doesn’t it, first a stinging sensation followed by a sensation of warmth as the blood reaches the surface and produces a nice red mark. As for apes beating their chest, it is well known that that is an expression of dominance to the other apes i.e. look at me, im strong and fit, you’ve got to be mad to try it on with me.
