I don't usually agree with David but I do herr, and I have done more forms than most, I've also been trained at a fairly high level in sports places where no Kata is done and forms places and the former produces way more better quality of fighters, shadow boxing and fixed pattern forms are not the same thing
Absolutely you should isolate first. We train people for months before they spar (though they still get to drill with resistance). Teaching sequences is something different though, and not something that, beyond the most basic compound techniques where 2 or 3 techniques are necessary to work together, are valuable to beginners, IMO. Part of my problem with kata, as I see them from the outside, is the specialisation and uniformity of function. They are "off the rack", when bespoke and tailored is superior. I guess if you are looking for uniformity in your system then that is a good thing. Again, I absolutely agree that sparring before basic form is learnt is counterproductive. I knew I should have been more careful about how I worded that when I posted it. Let me ask this then - how many people are good at shadow boxing, or even really learn anything from it, before they have experience of application? Depends where you draw the line in your definition. I have done a lot of solo forms, but not in the way that I usually see kata performed. I see this type of training as a method of deep exploration, and also a way of transmitting more esoteric concepts in movement.
If you have an instructor feeding you exercises that specifically target those problems, isn't that superior training to going through the same rote movements as everyone person who walks through the door?
I can't entirely disagree - I am NOT a forms guy - but they are not "useless" as they are being described as. In fact they add a lot of refinement to an existing skillset. Forms have a teaching advantage because you can teach uniform technique to a group of people...again though i do not outside of say Sumbrada, Sil Lum Tao and Tibon form 1 from Serrada Conversely I have had my ass handed to me by a "forms" guy (Sifu Arnold Tayam), albeit within his sphere rather than mine (push hands)
MMA gyms teach large groups as well without forms and manage to look the same drilling as they do sparring in most cases, the same isn't normally true of forms places which always makes me wonder what exactly are you trying to ingrain if it hardly ever comes out under pressure....
Randy Couture, Junior Dos Santos, Cain Velasquez, Stipe Miocic, Daniel Cormier, Alexander Gustafsson, Jon Jones, Luke Rockhold, Chris Weidman, Yoel Romero don't do kata. I don't even think any of Lumpinee/Rajadamnern fighters do kata in Muay Thai. Joseph Valtellini, Tyrone Sponge and Nieky Holzken don't do it. Maybe Fedor, Fabricio Werdum and Jacare did judo kata but the nage-no and kata me-no-kata have no benefit at all. Machida and GSP definitely do karate kata. Maybe Cro Cop and Rutten did taekwondo kata. But kata does not mean you'll be champion going by the people who DON'T DO IT. Funny how everyone ignored my questions about Steve Morris. Why does he think all karate is useless? Is it because he did Muay Thai (if he did where's the evidence?)? Morris is making outrageous claims about how his students would destroy the UFC fighters and how you'll learn more in 30 minutes with him than 30 years karate. He's actually got his belts/sashes in Goju / White Crane so he's not lying about his credentials
Morris is saying that to get publicity. He isn't very interesting, which is why we're not discussing him
Wanderlei won that fight...you can drill combinations; they're superior to kata. Even my first club (which was crap) made us do a 10 strike combination and it was basically a kata. Imo a combination is 5 techniques or less, a kata is more than 5. Another difference is kata makes you move in a specific way with zero benefit; the so called combination in my first club made us do a front kick from low stance. I'm so glad I left my first club and third kickboxing club because they both made me do pointfighting and my first kickboxing club made me do forms. Not happy I have to do kata in judo but I left that club too (alongside ju jitsu). I've trained at 9 different clubs over 12 years
Yet again you speak categorically about something you don't actually know about And I answered your question several times
Forms without application = poor Application without form = poor It's not an either or situation is it? the problem is with the "Starbucking" of martial arts ALL you see is kata...which is categorically wrong. Thankfully there are practitioners such as John Titchen, Iain Abernathy et al that can "walk the talk" too Then there is my Serrada teacher Darren Tibon - you would be hard pressed to find a better Escrimador His teacher before him taught the same way - prearranged sequences. Darren in fact created Form 1 So yes there are "fighting gyms" that still use forms to teach...alongside pressure testing of course
When you say better at them you mean doing kata will make you good at kata or doing kata will make you better at fighting/teaching/martial artist?
Application without form is poor I agree, but form doesn't mean forms, weapons work may be different as those forms are more akin to set applications of moves you will use in sparring than your normal empty hand forms or unrealistic to man forms, but I'd also say with modern protective gear you can drill weapons in a more free form way than people used to,just as modern empty hand protective gear makes single step unrealistic empty hand drilling redundant
Protective gear leads to poor form in FMA - Evne the most "freeform" weapon group, the Dog Brothers, do a LOT of basics and spre arranged sequenced drilling (i.e. forms) before they step up I am not suggesting forms are everything...as i said earlier I really don't use them myself, but they have an undeniable utility within context
Do you enjoy karate? If so then its not useless. And I have gone toe to toe with a Muay Thai practicioner. We both got all we wanted.
Well logically if it made you better at fighting, fighters would be doing it.... religiously. Some fighters do forms but not all of them. All of them lift, all day of them hit pads, all of them spar.
I have trained with Steve on a number of occasions. Admittedly not for a while. It would be good if those quotes attributed to him could be given some context and actually referenced back to the source. I don’t know of him saying or claiming some of those things you see. Some of it’s just sound bite out of context to the full view of his on karate or katas or Chinese systems, for example. Maybe it’s just a wind up thread haha. Who knows. It’s always interesting too how many of the big names, especially in British martial arts, who appreciate or respect and who have been influenced by Steve compare to those who say otherwise. Each of these names are worth more than ,say 10 ,internet guys who no one knows or who we never see do anything. Of course they are entitled to a view.
