Steroids...must we discuss them here?

Discussion in 'Health and Fitness' started by Combatant, Nov 13, 2005.

  1. Combatant

    Combatant Monsiour Fitness himself.

    I am getting worried about the amount of steroid related threads this past week or so. I don't like to see them being disscussed on normal bodybuilding websites/forums but this is a H+F forum on a martial arts forum. It just seems like completly the wrong place to be disscussing them whether you are slating them or encouraging them. A large majority of people who come on here are newbies, hense the reccurring newb questions. That I am aware of; there are no/few steroid takers here, so why are they being discussed in such depth. Its like me going on to a running forum and asking how to push past the plateau of a 300kilo squat. :bang:

    Some may say that this is a free forum- it is. Some may say that steroids are a major part of bodybuilding- they are FOR THE PROS! Some may say that if we are educated about them then we can make better decisions on correct (but illegal) usage- BULL. :woo: The education on these is in history (by that I mean just look at the lives they have ruined in one way or another) not on a forum from some random that you havent met. Even if the info is correct, there comes a time when knowledge is dangourous, if you start talking about them freely on here all the time then newbs, kids, teenages etc may be led down the path of thinking that these substances are ok and very normal in training. They are not. They are dangrous, and a common phase used is 'there is no point in being the biggest corpse in the graveyard'. ;)

    Sorry to rant but I try not to do it too often :rolleyes: The above is just my observations and opinions.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2005
  2. UGFighter

    UGFighter Valued Member

    I think that in general, there is a rather large ignorance on the topic with many people spouting that if you take them, you get side effects such as blah, blah, blah..

    That may be true, but there are possible side effects with taking any drug, even your normal every day panadol.

    That's great if you know the possible side effects of steroids, but it doesn't make you an expert on the topic. There are people who abuse steroids, like any other drug and they pay for it.

    To me, using steroids comes down to a moral/ethical decision...
     
  3. DSDbronson

    DSDbronson Master of Sports & Women

    my post http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42885 was the second on the board on herbs because of my interest in herbs but now it seems we have two on steroids, I'm not even interested in roids, I want to be a true natural champ or pursue other interests altogether, but if herbs come along or are rediscovered/disclosed that are better than roids then what, it's a question I'm asking myself just because I don't like the concepts of cheat, cheap, and fake
     
  4. warriorofanart

    warriorofanart Valued Member

    Those who take steriods think they are gaining greater strength without exercising, but they are cheating and harming themselves. If you want to be strong, and skilled just train, its more natural and healthy.
     
  5. JKD_forever

    JKD_forever DEADLIFT!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Almost everything you said is true - they are bad in the sense that they are a drug one way or another. I've seen people take steroids without any sides - because they do tons of research and know possible outcomes. They live normal life. Then I know this guy who never ever in his life took any supplements yet he decided to take deca. Got gyno whatnot. Now, I know this site largely forbids any discussion on steroids, and I do not approve of any use of such substances.
    HOWEVER, I feel that people need to get educated on this subject. What better place then H & F section? Whether we like it or not, steroids (and other similar substances) are part of athletic culture. I mean, there are total of 3 posts in last two months on steroids. If someone really needs an answer on these questions why not help him instead of closing the thread? Arguing that closing such a thread is good because it may attract certain people to try steroids is wrong. Because those same irresponsible individuals will try them sooner or later with such attitude. If you don’t like what you see, don’t read the post, nobody is saying you have to.
    just my 2 cents.
     
  6. GhostOfYourMind

    GhostOfYourMind Bewaters lil Iron Monkey

    If it's a post on "what should I stack deca with..." or something like that, then it doesn't belong here to me. If it's an intelligent conversation on the side effects, what they do, how they work, etc. and can educate people on them, then I'm all for it. I personally am against roids, and will never take them to enhance performance.

    My $2.23 + 6% sales tax = $2.36 :D
     
  7. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Yeah funny how that happens with a drug that has a track record of having serious and severe side effects eh? :rolleyes:

    This is silly and rather disengenuous. For the vast majority of people popping a Panadol - there is no side effect anywhere comparable to someone working a round of steroids. You're comparing apples to oranges here in attempt to shore up what seems to be the steroids side of the arguement here... sorry doesn't wash. Panadol is a different class of drug all together... and it's legal and it's side effects for 99.9% of users are nothing near the plethora of negative side effects steroids can have... should I go on? :D
    As you've just shown by your comparison you fit neatly into that category yourself.

    Here is something we agree on. It can be a moral and ethical question. And your right abuse of any drug can have serious implications.
     
  8. UGFighter

    UGFighter Valued Member

    slipthejab, pull your head out of your ass.

    There are many people who abuse steroids... the side effects people go on about of taking steroids would be equivalent to people who take a whole packet of panadols and then wonder why they ended up in hospital.

    They can be used in a safe and effective manner... I know several guys who have done so without any long-term damage to their health.
     
  9. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    LOL!:D
    Your a charming number. But you'll have to do harder than that to get a rise out of me. :D You might want to check your cycle there tough guy - it appears you may have a tad of roid rage. :D

    Let's see some numbers to back that up with. I'd love to see your sources and what references you cite on this one. Silly rabbit trix are for kids. :D
    Until then you are spewing rubbish and you know it. Deal with it.

    While I am sure they can be used in a manner that lessens the side effects your attempts to compare them with Panadol is foolish. Again - two completely different classes of drugs with two completely different focuses.
    As I pointed out before. Apples to oranges. No one can force you to understand that. But hey why consider it when it gets in the way of you shoring up your pro roids stance? :D
     
  10. UGFighter

    UGFighter Valued Member

    I've no need to go finding sources to back up my points to some scrawny, crater-faced runt on the Internet who wants to be bigger but doesn't have the dedication or commitment to train so he can reach those goals.

    It's up to people whether they want to be ignorant on the matter or not - obviously those who are against it for ethical/moral reasons, will be more inclined to be ignorant on the matter than those who don't see anything wrong with it ethically/morally.

    I am not pro steroids per se and nor do I use - I am only 20, so it's out of the question at this stage if I wanted to. I just think it's a personal choice people have to make AFTER getting educated on the topic, not just hearing all the possible side effects and then saying steroids are dangerous for you.
     
  11. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Case and point. You got asked to back up your assertions which are silly and unfounded. And you couldn't - because it's a non sequiter/

    The moral/ethical reason is all very well... but it has nothing to do with you trying to compare Panadol usage to steroids. Zero, zip, nada. It's interesting you go on about ignorance but your attempt to compare Panadol usage to Roid usage is just that.

    And the whole issue isn't helped any by people who chime in that steroid users run the same risk as Panadol users.
     
  12. ninjamonkey

    ninjamonkey New Member

    Hahah, Combatant, I've been watching your initially good intentioned and well presented post go down the tubes with the inevitable 'roid debate'. Hehe, it's been a pretty good watch.

    You make a good point though, Combatant, there seem to be too many posts about roids lately. I don't think anyone but the mods have the right to become the post police on this issue, but I think MAPpers should take it easy and perhaps think of the relevance before making another anti-roid thread (it's usually anti).
     
  13. UGFighter

    UGFighter Valued Member

    In general, steroids users are reluctant to admit using them.

    You want a study? You go find it.. But, I've spoken to actual people who have used steroids without any ill effects to their health - it's not something they go around advertising, they've told me as a close mate in confidence and I respect that. What they've said is more than sufficient for me. I'll put it out there and let other people follow it up at their own will, or peril you might say.

    Let's take the popular myth of steroids shrink your balls, or even your penis as a lot of ignorant people say... Yes, it does... but this is because your body has an overload of testosterone since you are injecting it directly into the blood, bypassing the natural procedure of making testosterone so your body stops producing testosterone and your balls shrink up 1/3 of their original size as a result of this.

    Now, when you finish a cycle... you use an estrogen-blocking drug, so your body can kick start producing testoserone again and what do you know? Your balls come back to their original size.

    It's idiots who use long cycles, or don't use proper drugs to manage side effects that make their health and well being suffer in the long term.

    I've got a Dr, who is a gym junkie.. for sport related injuries he is a champion, no other Dr understands the need to get back on the mat ASAP, etc. and he will fix it rather than tell you 'just rest it for x weeks'. He uses steroids, an educated professional. I'm willing to bet he doesn't suffer any side effects because he uses it smartly.


    Don't put words in my mouth. I said EVERY drug has possible side effects and I used panadol as an example of this. I never made any comparison of risks with the associated side effects.

    I've been on drugs for medical problems which have contained very annoying and irritating side effects, including depression which I lucky enough to get. The side effects of steroids don't seem so bad - some of them I'd take over depression any day.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2005
  14. kenpoguy

    kenpoguy The Last Dragon

    reply...

    UGFighter and slip the jab take it easy guys :bang: I've gotta side more with slipthejab on this one. I am totally anti-roids, and dont condone nor believe in the usage of them. Though, in most cases they DO affect the users. Not in ALL that you may personally know, but on a much bigger scale most guys. I have known many guys that have taken them, and it has literally screwed their lives up. Then, I've known a couple who were fine with it with minor side affects. It comes down to also how each person responds differntly to them and how much they take of it. I agree with what an earlier poster said, this was a well-intentioned post gone bad. If your discussing how to "use" and "stack" steriods then it has no place on a fourm like this. yet, if your discussing what they are then this is the proper setting. Though, i also agree that there are far too many steriod postings lately...
     
  15. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    UF fighter,

    I understand what you're saying about your mates that are on roids. Fair enough.. I haven't got a problem with that... they're on it... what's to disagree with. It's their life and their health.

    The real issue that I had with your post was, again, using Panadol as a comparison. The point is that the comparison is way off base. The vast majority of Panadol users don't suffer side effects and the side effects that are suffered by the vast majority of users would be negliable as compared to the side effects of roids. The effects of a class of drugs like Panadol even used incorrectly for an extended period of time would pale in comparison to something like steroids used for an extended amount of time.

    They are simply two massively different types of drug with a severity of side effects that is not even in the same ballpark. So when you bring up a comparison like that the onus is on you to provide either relevant statistics and studies to shore that up... or be taken to task for it.

    Now... that being said... there are many people who take steroids on a regular basis and are not body builders... people who suffer from lung ailments being one of them. By and large they are under the care of a doctor who monitors their health and reaction. Generally they have far more resources to be able to deal with problems and as well - they are on the legal side of the law.

    As for your myth of testical shrinkage and penile shrinkage... erm... you might want to read again what you've posted. You start it off by calling it a myth and calling people who hold this point of view ignorant... but then you go on to contradict yourself and explain the physiological process that sparks this shrinkage due to the bodys reaction to steroids. I'm not sure that was what you intended.

    The example of the doctor that you know using steroids is an interesting one. He has access, resources and knowledge that the average person doesn't. So while he makes the choice to use steroids I don't really see that as a positive or realistic endorsement of steroids per se.

    As for the side effects of drugs that have given you depression - I'm sorry to hear that... I don't wish it on anyone. I can understand now why you made the comparison to prescription drugs having side effects to the side effects of steroids. I still don't think Panadol is a great example of this comparison.. but I do agree there are drugs there are many drugs that have massive side effects on the user - this is the nature of medicine. It's often a balancing act between what it treats and the side effects it has on a person while being treated.
     
  16. CosmicFish

    CosmicFish Aleprechaunist

    Combatant,

    I sympathise with what you're saying. Personally I wouldn't touch them. I should be honest and admit now that I come into the "don't know much about them, never will because it'll never be relevant to me" category. If that makes me ignorant in the eyes of some steroid users then so be it. I'm quite happy to defend my position on this.

    However, I don't think their discussion on this board should be banned. As has already been pointed out, a lot of the ignorance surrounding them is caused by the fact that they're illegal. I think it's worth tolerating the recurrence of these threads if only that some of the experts here can contribute some educated and informed discussion on their use.

    I don't condone their use and I'd hope that any discussions would end up discouraging someone from using them, but there are those who will be dead set on using them regardless. Surely it'd be safer for them to at least be better informed?
     
  17. Apotheosis

    Apotheosis Valued Member

    The only problem I have with steroids is when they are used incorrectly, and without caution. Science is a way of learning about the things around us, and once we know about them, why shouldnt we use our knowledge to improve ourselves? I am not saying that steroids are good, as all of the ones I know about are in the end bad for you, but as science advances I wouldnt be surprised to see modern steroids whose effects are all positive, and when that day comes, why wouldnt you take a pill to improve your strength and speed? I highly discourage anyone from using unsafe drugs, but because something is unsafe now doesnt mean it will always be.
     
  18. Vexed

    Vexed New Member

    I feel that steroids should not be used, accept in cases where medical practitioners prescribe them for the benefit of making an individual better due to them being ill, but only for the short term.
     
  19. UGFighter

    UGFighter Valued Member

    slipthejab,

    Re-read my last post, I did not make a comparison of the severity or scale of side effects with panadol and steroids. I said EVERY drug has possible side effects, panadol included.

    Amonsgt your incoherent ramble.. you did manage to stumble across my point: proper education and knowledge of what you're doing.

    There's a reason you go to a Dr. to get drugs prescribed - he prescribes am amount relevant to your situation and monitors the side effects of the drug closely through regular check ups, blood tests, etc.

    My example of the shrinkage of testicles is to highlight the ignorance of people - and claiming shrinkage of the penis or growth is just plain outright ignorance as this does not happen. However, shrinkage of the balls is a natural and temporary side effect expected to happen, which can be managed if you edcuate yourself properly.

    It's idiots who don't get themselves clomid before starting a cycle of test., or idiots who go on long cycles abusing the substance that end up with permanently shrunk balls. To be quite frank, they deserve it too.

    Btw, testosterone is a natural hormone produced in the body... what's so bad about injecting it? You know when kids go through puberty, their balls drop, their voice breaks, they get hair, they get acne...
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2005
  20. jsmith

    jsmith Valued Member

    I think discussions about steroids are similar to swearing. I have no problem with them happening somewhere on the internet, it just seems to go against the general spirit of Martial Arts Planet.

    Pretty much all the discussions on this site are appropriate for people of any age. Look at how many questions we get here from teenage boys, and the benefit they receive from learning proper training techniques at an early age). I don't think it would be unreasonable for parents to be concerned if their 13 year old kid was talking to adults about the benifits of taking steroids through this site.
     

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