Standing Grappling & Throws

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Newcastle Martial Artist 76, Aug 14, 2020.

  1. How does Taijutsu work in this area? ie Standing locks - such as controlling an assailant, if you are a door person or police office etc.
    If you just want to control someone so you can lead them out of the bar etc.

    Also, how do your throws match up against say Judo throws? Are they very similar? Or is the application different?
  2. Mushroom

    Mushroom De-powered to come back better than before.

    About 2 people vs 1 works best.
    Hammer lock both arms behind the back. 1 arm each person.
    Optional but preferred 3rd person in front leading the way does 3 things.
    - clear path
    - assists if 1 arm or more gets loose
    - makes sure the idiot doesnt fall over and hurt themselves or others.

    2 or more people vs the 1 also de esculates the situation quickly in regards to Doorman work. 9 out of 10 times the evictee wouldnt want to get physical because hes out numbered.

    1 on 1, the guy thinks he has a chance. Also as a solo Doorman you'll be resorting to strikes a lot earlier. That increases risk of damage to both parties.
    As a Doorman who is working, you want to make sure youre able to safely get home. Which means dispatching of the other person before he does you. Meaning you may have to hurt the person. No matter what training you have. Its a 50/50 chance or at least treat it as such.
    At the same time, your goal is to get home yourself and not end up in prison, hospital or worse. And that is a bit of balance of risk that you must assess and mostly comes with experience.

    ****this is on the caveat that verbal de escalation has failed. IE blagging it and hes not listening, and physicality is the last option left.

    2 on 1. Lessens the risk of injury. Depending on various factors. Lets say you work well with your partner and know each others moveset. Meaning you got less limbs to worry about. And detainment via holds and positional domination is easier, used more readily and the consideration of striking is lessened.
    Which basically mean all 3 parties go home with less bruises. Hopefully.
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  3. Thanks for the reply Mushroom, and an informative one.
  4. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Generally speaking joint locks from standing require strikes to set them up
    Pretty hard to do without strikes

    Again the throwing methods in taijutsu mostly use strikes to break the opponent's balance/structure as opposed to the judo methods of pushing/pulling etc
    So as long as the situation allows then they work fine, but I'm not sure if these throwing methods are best suited for door work

    In terms of police work there's a great interview with Peter King (long time police officer in UK) on Paul Masse's site
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  5. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

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  6. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio


    But in fairness to Dunc, that wasn't a standing joint lock. I took his point as meaning that if someone is dukes-up fighting, you will generally need to distract them with a strike in order to apply some form of joint lock. Of course, door staff and police encounter a wide range of resistance, and sometimes it is possible to utilise some form of joint lock to shift them without needing to strike first.
  7. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Most of the time when I see 1 v 1 standing joint locks working it's on someone who's not fighting *that* much. Someone who's aggressive and abusive perhaps but not all in for the fight.
    If someone is in full-on "swinging at faces" mode it's very hard to locate a limb, let alone put a lock on it when you get it.
    In most cases you need something like some back up help, a massive strength advantage, phenomenal timing and tactile sensitivity and/or diminish the person first (blow before throw - shock before lock). Unconscious people are pretty easy to joint lock. :)
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  8. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Generally standing joint locks don't work for control, they're unreliable for that, a solid takedown and pin is superior for arrest, for walking people out, clinch work, and some grip/hand fighting is the better choice.

    Theirs a lot of throws etc in taijutsu that work just fine when you've put the time in sparring with them, they also are very similar to judo throws, with a larger emphasis on hand control, which everyone over focuses on.
  9. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    If your interested in application, the akban video resources will give you lots of ideas.

    But really a few years of wrestling/judo etc is a better foundation, then add taijutsu in if you feel you need it.
  10. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Well, that is another debate. It is common for police to hold the thumbs when cuffing someone standing (I would consider that a form of standing lock), and also when walking someone it is common to be in a partial lock position, to keep them from gaining a solid posture. The one I see the most is looping the hand through to the shoulder if they are cuffed behind their back.

    I completely agree that trying to get standing locks on a fully resisting opponent is a fool's errand, but sometimes they hand you a gift and snatching a standing lock to keep their posture broken for half a second to set up takedowns or strikes can work well in those rare circumstances.
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  11. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Do you think the "thumbhold" is to stop them grabbing the officers with that hand/ protect their own fingers?
  12. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I think it is the easiest thing to grab onto in order to keep the hands together while they are reaching for the cuffs. It will give them a fraction of a second to back off and draw a weapon, or for another officer to react, if the person being cuffed attempts to spin around.

    That would be my guess. We'd have to ask someone who does it for a living.
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  13. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    So a double thumb hold, whilst pinned to a wall/floor, whilst the get the cuffs? Ok that makes more sense.
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  14. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Yup. Sorry, didn't realise my description was ambiguous.
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  15. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    Have you found standing joint locks to work on someone engaged and resisting?
    I've found that wristlocks and underhook locks (like a standing Mir-lock) seem to break balance or distract enough for a throw or takedown but never really get standing locks to work on someone engaged in the scenario.
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  16. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    My judo coach had a nasty line in standing wrist locks which made you hesitant to commit to a grip, but they didn't work as well in comp as people have a bit more pep in them, but they generally worked into others throws anyway.

    I think the issue often is, the main throws only have a few variations, whereas it's easy to make up a billion different armlock combinations, so syllabuses tend to have 20 armlocks that are low percentage, and one high percentage throw, so the unimportant things get trained more then the important thing.

    Same as BJJ, everyone wants a billion different techniques, whereas Roger shows, just train a few really deeply and that's enough!
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  17. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

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  18. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

    Wristlocks seem to work best when the opportunity to do one appears and you take it. Rather than specifically attempt to do one . Understanding the fundamentals of how a wrist lock or something similar works and causes pain, means they can be made up and ad libbed depending on what's happening in that moment and think are best used as a route to something else, but if it breaks and stops the other guy immediately , then it's a bonus.
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  19. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

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  20. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    In my experience standing wrist locks without using strikes are hard to pull off if your opponent is expecting / aware of the possibility
    However, it's pretty easy to feel if your opponent has a soft wrist/grip and if they do then they are super high percentage because they are so quick. Worst case you've broken the grip and your opponent is scared to grip you again
    With the addition of strikes the straight arm style of wrist locks are super reliable as long as you have the timing right

    In a non-striking context (BJJ in my case) I find that you can constantly attack the wrist without risking anything to break grips, force a reaction etc so I like them a lot
    I consciously don't attack wrist locks now when rolling against anyone other than my instructors because I find they bring a roll to a close too early &/or in the heat of the moment you can cause unnecessary injuries

    Straight elbow locks are almost impossible to pull off standing without striking to extend the arm and even then I find that on more experienced opponents they are more useful to force a reaction rather than to finish (the exception is locking the elbow on your shoulder which works scarily well, but has a high risk of injury)
    Bent elbow locks (ie overcooking style) only really work against experience opponents if they are overcommitted to holding your elbow/jacket (eg because they need to stop you striking with that arm in the basic methods). There are some circumstances in the gi where you can crank a musha dori on without striking, but only as a part of a broader control/takedown
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