Standing grappling - advice sought

Discussion in 'Self Defence' started by Monkey_Magic, Feb 28, 2020.

  1. Monkey_Magic

    Monkey_Magic Well-Known Member

    I've unfortunately needed self-protection skills a couple of times recently, albeit going to the aid of others. In both cases, I'd have found standing grappling skills useful. I know Japanese jujitsu is often derided, and Chin Na is hard to find, but I was missing these sorts of skills. I'd like thoughts from any LEOs or experienced hands: what do you do about standing grappling?

    I avoid trouble and places where trouble is likely, so either I've been unlucky recently or the UK is becoming a worse place.

    Thankfully, both events ended without injury and with the police arriving in reasonable time. While all's well that ends well, I had no relevant physical skills despite years of martial arts. I might as well never have trained in martial arts, and that's caused me to reflect.

    I have a background in full-contact arts but striking would only have escalated matters, and perhaps caused me to be charged with assault. I know a little groundwork, but ending up on the ground would have been catastrophic. Even judo throws wouldn't have helped. It strikes me that there's a place for something like JJJ or Chin Na, but I'd like to have thoughts and ideas from others with relevant experience.
  2. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    It sounds like you need controling clinch work,
    As found in judo / wrestling / MMA / Thai.

    Standing pain compliance doesn't really work reliably, so really you want control / stopping their striking / potentially allowing your own striking / chokes / and takedowns into control or disengagement.

    Wierdly Cage work from MMA has a lot of crossover here....
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  3. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    As Deadpool said Cage work is what you are looking for and is the one area on MMA which is completely unique to MMA other arts have g and p, throws with strikes but none have wall work.

    Standing chin na does not work unless you have beaten the guy senseless first or have help, I say this as someone who specialised in said chin na for about a decade, if you can't get wall work judo is very useful in terms of tie ups,controlling and off balancing as is western wrestling

    Stiff arming him like in judo will control his balance and ability to hit, arm drags duck unders will give you access to his back which is a good place to control and diffuse a situation
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  4. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Also sambo. A mix of judo and wrestling and if you can find a place to train you should definitely try!
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  5. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    The changes of finding a sambo or adult wrestling club are really hard though
    Judo and MMA statistically are probably his best bet
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  6. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Depends on where you are. I'd imagine central London had a few places. There's somewhere in Glasgow that has a really good instructor. I just thought I'd shut it out on the off chance somewhere nearby might have it.
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  7. axelb

    axelb Master of Office Chair Fu

    I feel that things in the UK are definitely worse, and I've seen the statistics on it rising.

    As well as anecdotally experiencing more encounters:
    a month someone was going through the interview stage for a mugging/assault couldn't work out. I saw him coming a mile off.
    Various other situations which I neutrolized in the last months after nothing for a decade or more, and these were places I'd considered low risk area.

    Hopefully you never have to deal with it again, but it's good that you've taken a critical approach into dealing with things, and the same reason I favour grappling as a civillian skill (from someone who spent most of their martial arts hours in striking arts), the amount of times I got into trouble in the UK for throwing a punch when I was not the instigator.

    Wrestling is easier to get than it used to be, but Judo, MMA, and Muay thai are probably easier over all across the UK.

    Even if you're not looking to tie someone up standing, Judo or Wrestling will help keep you on your feet

    and today I learnt a new word thanks :D
    Grond likes this.
  8. Monkey_Magic

    Monkey_Magic Well-Known Member

    Thanks everyone - it's really helpful to discuss how to deal with these things.

    I'm familiar with clinch work from a background in Muay Thai, but I was worried about going into a clinch in case of weapons.

    I hadn't thought to access his back while remaining standing, and don't yet have the skill to do this, but I think it would have been a good option. Is that a wrestling skill or do other arts teach this?

    I haven't seen the statistics, but I've gone from nothing eventful happening in years to three incidents in the last year, all in places I'd considered low risk areas too.
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2020
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  9. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    I also feel that things are getting worse in the UK
    Weapons, or at least the possibility of them, changes your approach to grappling and distance a lot. So if that's a concern then you need to find a way to take that into account
    As always it's a combination of the style chosen and the club/dojo/academy and you probably want to shop around a bit. As an experienced martial artist you'll probably know pretty quickly when you see what you're looking for
    Where about are you?
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  10. Grond

    Grond Valued Member

    This is a hard one because I think it depends on the weapon and the context. IF you have a baseball bat, it would make sense that my best place to be is outside your range entirely, and the second best is clinched with you to wrestle the bat away. It's hard to get hit when you're inside the perimeter, so to speak. There's a sort of "Goldilocks Zone" you don't want to be, but inside or outside of that you've got options.

    I could be wrong, my weapons training is minimal at this point. Just saying what makes sense to me.
  11. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Yup the dangerous zone/distance is in principle the same for unarmed, defending against weapons and using weapons
    What changes, particularly when blades are a possibility, is the methods to create distance, close distance and control
    In some cases these are adjustments to core methods (eg when grappling work to control hands far more than usual), but depending on the style you will also find several core techniques have to go out the window (eg wrestling single leg takedown)
    The challenge (particularly when knives are considered) is that you most likely won’t know if they are armed or not, so making the mental gear change to core methods may be difficult to do, especially in a stressful, confusing situation
    Grond likes this.
  12. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    Good replies so far.

    What do you have available as choices?

    It sounds like you are looking more to 'add to' what you already do... a bit of cross training. I'd recommend Hapkido (of course I'm biased) for the standing grappling ... often with a good chance to practice other ranges and weapons with the techniques.

    I think the advice of Judo, MMA, clinch work, etc is all good too... especially for trying out the techniques with resistance and feedback.
    Grond likes this.
  13. Monkey_Magic

    Monkey_Magic Well-Known Member

    Yes, I’m looking to ‘add to’ because I like my current club, and I think my core style (Sanda) is one of the more functional arts.

    I actually looked for Hapkido, but the only Korean art I saw nearby was TKD.

    Nowadays, I think it’s sensible to assume a knife is a very real possibility. This has got to change the approach to grappling, hasn’t it?

    In my own experience, the adrenal stress is much higher in a self-defence situation than in anything I’ve experienced in training. This means I’m reacting on instinct with little chance of changing gear. Consequently, I’d ideally like some grappling training that takes account of weapons - possibly some Krav schools teach this?
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  14. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Where are you located?
    The older Japanese styles are built on these core principles, but often lack good training methods to produce solid, structural technique and can be lost in their history which keeps them out of date
    But find a good club/instructor and they may have what you’re looking for
    Grond likes this.
  15. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    Ironically when the weapons come out where grappling is concerned you see more pure freestyle and Greco technique's than you do in MMA.

    Two in one's, baseball bat grips, which are no where in MMA suddenly become really useful when care about is controlling one limb and not about being punched with the other.

    As for the whole seeing the weapon and dealing with it before contact the STAB program was often criticized for not having much around dealing with range Karl's reasoning was simple usually you have no idea a knifes involved until it's in you and then the fight starts and the research around the topic sort of proved this theory as scary as it is
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