stances in self-defence

Discussion in 'Self Defence' started by gazzthewannabe, Feb 6, 2005.

  1. gazzthewannabe

    gazzthewannabe New Member

    just a thought, ive not seen a thread about stances in combat...ive heard people on they're storeys of how they kicked someoens butt and other interesting stuff...but i never hear what stance they're using(if any)
    so heres a few questions
    would you use a stance in real life combat?, and what stance would you use?

    id proberly use either an L stance (i know basic term but im a noob at MA :D ) or the wing chung stance(the first one taught)
     
  2. Coges

    Coges Valued Member

    I am fairly new to this too but I would assume a neutral stance, ie. feet shoulder width apart, one in front of the other, knees bent slightly to give balance. Never really been in a real fight so just going off what I have seen and been told.
     
  3. Nrv4evr

    Nrv4evr New Member

    I personally use a modified Muay Thai stance. I hold out my left hand like the traditional Thais (open hand, palm forward), and my right (back) hand is held so that my elbow is close to my ribs, and the fist is close to my jaw. The left hand can block most telegraphed punches, and I usually react fast enough to block incoming jabs. My right hand is poised to strike, but it also protects my ribs and face. My feet are in the normal boxing stance; both feet angled and bent, standing on the balls of my feet.

    Most of the time though, I have no time to drop into a stance. I hit the other guy as hard as I can, and then get away before he gets a knife or calls his friends. :D
     
  4. MatsuRyu

    MatsuRyu New Member

    definitely what our style calls a "combat stance". That entails feet shoulder width, back foot turned 45 degrees to the outside relative to your leading foot, which should point straight ahead. both hands up near the face, lead with the same hand as foot (that is your jab hand matches your leading foot, your cross hand matches your back foot). knees slightly bent for balance. any stance too structured or low makes movement cumbersome, which definitely isn't good in combat.
     
  5. Ikken Hisatsu

    Ikken Hisatsu New Member

    stance is irrelevant, what matters is the situation and your footwork.
     
  6. Booknewt

    Booknewt New Member

    This is a good way to end up in jail, whether you "win" or "lose" the altercation.

    I agree that stance is meaningless in self-defense. Outcome is everything. many martial-artists seem to believe that simply "winning" a fight is a good outcome. However, "winning" a fight could be the worst move you ever make. It can land you in jail for everything from homicide to aggravated assault (Brits, substitute your legalese here).

    Self-defense involves controlling everything about the conflict, from seizing every opportunity for avoidance to preventing legal repercussions at the end. So, to take a very simple question like stance and apply a model of Complete self-defense, one must consider what one's stance says to the all important WITNESSES. A stance that can, in any way, be interpreted as a "combat" stance, or the stance of an agressor is an advertisement to the WITNESSES that you are not the VICTIM in the scene.

    A natural stance is a nice fall-back, if you cannot place yourself in what I like to refer to as the "helpless-wussy-stance". This position is a narrow stance, one side slightly back, and hands up and out in a placating gesture. The palms should face outward as close to the agressor as possible w/out locking your arms,. Your body language should clearly state that you are both IN FEAR FOR YOUR LIFE and trying to avoid physicality.

    Now, the astute amongst you will no doubt be wondering about those hands up, palms facing outward bit. You probably recognize that as the opening position for a great deal of mayhem. You would be right. But, and this is key, the WITNESSES will remember that you were afraid, and trying to talk the BAD GUY out of hitting you. They will remember this because you will have been communicating it with your body, language and hands, in no uncertain terms.

    Thus, no matter the outcome of the physicality, you stand a better chance of arguing self-defense and victimhood after the fact than you would if you were obviously in a fighting stance.

    The only people who say "I'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6" are people who've never seen what a jury can do. As for me, I'd prefer neither.

    Now, as for what comes after this set up... well, that's for another post.

    very respectfully,
     
  7. GeeniusAtWurk

    GeeniusAtWurk Valued Member

    Jail time for using a stance? jeez...

    In our CLF we use a neutral-ish stance. shoulder width feet, one knee slightly bent, both hands up muay thai-sh. the hands should be like "hey dont come closer please, i dont want any trouble." if it gets worse you can just jab and run!
     
  8. Booknewt

    Booknewt New Member

     
  9. Peter Bradbury

    Peter Bradbury Valued Member

    This is true, whats good is your stance if you cant move? your much better having good footwork, and being able to move around your opponent and possibly if your lucky finding an escape.
     
  10. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    Booknewt: excellent post... I was going to post along the same lines... I totally agree with your advice.

    My normal stance (if I can't get away or I am approached) is a natural stance turned slightly away from the person with my hands up and open (the "I don't want any trouble" stance). From there I can strike, grab, evade, etc easily... and yes, we practice it in class a lot (WTF TKD calls it "walking stance )
     
  11. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Nicely put, but the concepts of a good stance are still relevant even if your footwork should adjust to the situation and opponent.

    Some concepts such as being a hard to hit target along with protecting vitals should be considered along with how the body naturally moves. I've seen and heard of people that forget these things, go to an open stance at the inappropriate times and end up getting attacked in the groin or between the legs, even worse getting cut with a knife down there, instead of turning more sideways to be a smaller target and to protect that area.

    Good point too.

    I have seen the opposite true also. People with too high a stance when striking or grappling with upper body to generate power. If you remember the older days of low stances, you don't want to sacrifice mobility, but when using upper body for striking or grappling, you need some way of getting better leverage and having a better base. You need to know how to drop your weight for power when appropriate.

    I see demonstrations of people, probably intermediate levels, punching from a high, mobile stance. It looks more like dancing than punching because they aren't rooted well and the body mechanics they are using only allow them a fraction of the power they could be generating with a better rooted base.

    -------

    You need both mobility and power, one stance cannot do that, thus having no fixed stance, but having good footwork, movement concepts, and knowing how to root and have a strong base for leverage and power must all be in the application, as well as protecting your vitals and being a hard to hit target.
     
  12. Peter Bradbury

    Peter Bradbury Valued Member

    Diffrent stances dont forget have diffrent appliations depending on where you are, and what you intend to do to. The ability to move, using both your feet and body is important. In the FMA, there are many long stances as it was developed in the jungle, and so these require a lot of body movement, bringing you in and out of range. There are also more upright stances, which requite footwork. No stance is the best, it depends on the person and situation.
     
  13. Infrazael

    Infrazael Banned Banned

    Geenius - Personally, I find that something similar to a staggered horsestance is very useful. Most of the time, my personal type of attack involves exploding into a Gwa-Sao-Gwa-Punch spinning combo, followed mabye by a few jabs, hooks, crosses and another Sao Choy or Kup for a K-O. Do you find that a slightly lowered stance makes your stance transitions much easier??? Especially if you are spinning or doing Gwa-Sao or a Gwa-Kup.

    Also, bow stance for Gwa-Kum-Biu Jong??? I use that as well.
     
  14. NeonxBurst

    NeonxBurst 1st Black

    I don't really have a "fighting stance" per say, it's more like, "OK I'm standing here and he's swinging at me, now can I defend from here or do I need to move?" s I guess really I'd say you don't need any stance, you need a good pair of running shoes, because that's the only way to insure not being tried by 12 or carried by 6.
     
  15. Pete Ticali

    Pete Ticali Valued Member

    In my opinion

    "A fighting stance" is never elative to self defense.

    Even if you had the ability to get into one...why would you tell the agressor to get ready for someone "less" than a victim.

    IfI had my choice, at the first remark of address I would step one foot back about a half a step into a modifed natural stance. When dropping the foot back my hands would come up in front of my chest with palms pointing outwars to the agressor. It would look like "stick um up" but not over my head. I would be verbally saying something like " Whoa guy" whats up?,

    At that moment "ALL" options are open. If he thought I looked at his wife, I apoligise and go home. If he attackes thinking I'm a whuss, he's in for a surprise, and I still go home.

    just my .02

    Pete Ticali
     
  16. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    i agree with neonXburst, though i've never been in a fight myself.
    a stance should be wherever your feet are, no more, no less.

    though my arm stance would be one fist across the "leading side" of my chest, the leading arm is in an L-shape, parallel to my back foot(unless i'm not in a neutral stance at the moment), which side leads is irrelevant, if you train with only one side forward you won't be able to use the other one properly
     
  17. Booknewt

    Booknewt New Member

    Thanks. Now, I find this interesting. Over the years, I've been steadily gaining in respect for TKD. Usually this is bolstered by the nature of the people I find bashing it--but I digress. In any case, on the west coast, I haven't seen a lot of TKD schools with this sort of practical minded application. Is that an East coast thing, or a maybe I've been out of the loop for a few years thing?

    Anyway, we progressed people, but ultimately all self-defense was done from a harmless-looking stance such as you describe. Low stances were for the purpose of building collateral, but reality was always carefully discussed, and responding to everything from ambush to simple social agression was practiced. How intensive is your curriculum on non-physical conflict response methodology?
     
  18. Booknewt

    Booknewt New Member

    Not sure what many of these terms mean, but in any case it all sounds quite convoluted and, well, obvious to onlookers that you are the bad guy chop-sokkying that poor hapless mask-wearing fellow.

    I highly recommend Peyton Quinn's Bouncer's Guide to Barroom Brawling for those wishing to ground themselves in reality as it applies to self-defense in a public arena. The KISS principle always applies. There's a bit of swearing, but the content is outstanding.

    Actually, from my experience and a great deal of research, there seem to be two primary types of self-defense situations: 1. those you could and should have avoided and 2. ambushes. Defending from the former seems to be a matter primarily of controlling ego. Defending from the latter seems to be a matter of being able to take a head bonk and keep going.

    And yes, that IS simplifying. I find simplifying a useful tool for making the obvious, yet for some reason murky to many, clear to most.

    very respectfully,
     
  19. Booknewt

    Booknewt New Member

    nicely put
     
  20. Kosh

    Kosh New Member


    Definately, foot work is far more important. Get it right and i think the stance takes care of itself.

    Coming from a HKD (more footwork than stance) and Capoeira (more about balance) i dont really use a stance. Plus theres always the issue, in self defence, of wether you have the luxury of being able to assume a stance.
     

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