If that is the only case, that the leopard fist's only advantage is its smaller striking area, thus enabling to more easily slip past the guard, than there is no difference (conceptually speaking) between it and the nukite strike. Also both will leave you with broken fingers if you haven't done enough conditioning. I have been doing nukite conditioning for the past 7 or 8 months, but I am nowhere near the point of doing some serious tameshiwari with it. I have so far only managed to use it once successfully in a sparring, striking to the liver after gedan barai.
the panther works very well in upward angled motions getting under the chin and into the neck. This is not recommend for sparing for obvious reasons. This strike features very heavily some of the win chung forms. It can also be used for grappling in a similar way to the snake hand.
I am confused. you say that you regularly use different hands. Do you use snake hand? Snake is one of the two principle grappling hands. Most grappling techniques that you can do with snake you can do with panther (although often not quite as well). The majority of the techniques bellow are done with a snake hand. The thumb is not used in opposition to the fingers in the grip, it is on the same side as the fingers. (the fact that the video is titled snake pit is a fortunate coincidence.) [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6v5yD007bp0"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6v5yD007bp0[/ame]
Maybe in Hung Gar they are grappling hands, but not in CLF. They are striking techniques. Al least not that I have been taught. So, I am looking forward to learning how Hung Gar uses them for grappling.
I also said that the hand techniques I am using come from Karate (so indirectly from Kung Fu), and are not meant to be used for grappling in the style that I practice. The hand techniques that I am practicing are (to give some examples): seiken, uraken, tegatana, nukite, koken, ippon ken, shotei. Some of these might be similiar or even the same as the snake hand, but I am not familiar with the Kung Fu terminology. So, I am curious, how the leopard fist can be used for grappling?
The snake works by contact and friction and sliding and ratcheting on the grip. The low profile of the panther hand allows it to move in the same way as the snake hand, although as the fingers are folded they provide less grip. When it is used in grappling panther is used in exactly the same way as the snake. So for example a panther hand could be substituted in many of the grips in the example I posted above.
Aarradia - picture your opponent throwing a straight left punch standing with a left lead foot. You slip to the opponents outside (your right) you bridge with your rear hand (your left) and panther hook to the jaw with your lead front hand (the right). You then push your right forearm across the opponents face, the friction gives you control of their head. your left hand grips their arm and stops them from moving their body away. You continue the movement keeping the hand in panther, you wrap wrap/snake your right arm around their head keeping friction contact all the time, get the revers head lock and break the neck. That would be an application of panther hand in grappling.
Don't get me wrong, this is all legitimate and I really do enjoy myself these kind of combinations. But good luck outside slipping a jab from somebody who actually knows how to throw them. Attempting this kind of technique would result in you slipping to the outside, but in the meantime your opponent would revert to full guard. And we start all over again. This might work if the person dodging is insanely fast, or if the person throwing the punch puts entire body weight in it, thus making it harder for him to get his hand back to guard. I know this was just an example of how a leopard/panther hand can be used for grappling, but I thought I would add my two cents.
The bridge follows the attackers arm back to guard so the technique actually works from a bridge of the opponents guard not a bridge to the opponents extended arm. So Not starting all over again. Starting from a bridge to the guard while positioned to the outside of the opponent and hitting them with a hook. Slipping the punch and following the hand back are not the hard bits. The real problem is that the opponent will not stand in place after they punch so their body will be moving. The slip and hook have to be done as one movement, this buys time and control of the opponents center long enough to get the head and arm control. while at the same time using footwork to stick to the moving opponent. If the opponent makes the separation then, yes you are right - starting all over again (but hopefully you have just hit them in the head with a partner so that's a bonus).
Maybe, but he can at the same time pivot on his right foot (assuming the situation starts from his left jab) after you slip from the strike, and even though the bridge will help your hand stick to his neck/face area, you will have a terrible angle to do anything. His right side will be now facing you, just so you can imagine the situation. From that position you can either abort your attack, or leave your hand near his face/neck, but in the latter case he will have the position for a throw or an wrist/elbow lock. Or while you attempt to get a reverse hold on his neck, he can turn clockwise and hit you with his right spinning elbow. Again, not saying this is bad, just pointing out the options that are possible for the guy being attacked. What are some other things that can be done assuming the attack is countered in the aforementioned way?
there are always counters to everything. the "if you do this, I would do that" argument is, in my opinion, complete waste of time if taken to the extreme. (and in my opinion this is heading that way). If you are standing to the immediate left of the opponent bridging with your rear left hand onto his lead left arm having struck at the head with your lead right hand the most obvious things the opponent will do are, move off and create separation, which you attempt to counter by moving with them and by holding onto their left arm with your left hand to interfere with their movement. turn in towards you putting their mid line onto yours and punching you with their free right hand. You counter this my continuing to move to their left (moving their midline off yours) and by extending your right hand across thier face to open for the revers headlock. If they are too fast with the right cross you use your right to cover it while continuing to move to their left. this gives you an opening for a less effective head grapple with their right arm trapped. at this point I would apply another lever e.g drop forward into horse to break their balance while trapping one of their legs with my lead right leg. the spinning back fist / elbow with the right is the least likely option, but if they do it you have the bridge to their left arm which allows you to feel the movement and your free right arm covers the right side of your head and you step into them smothering the back-fist / eblow and then go for the revers head lock. the way you practice this is to train with a compliant partner so that you know what you are meant to achieve, then with a more actively resisting partner, if you are playing with panthers and or elbows I strongly recommend wearing a moth guard while you do it.
The Key point is not the particulars of the application it is the method behind the technique. The panther can be used as a strike to a hard surface that can then be followed up immediately by a "snake" grapple or to into muscle groups and then followed immediately with a "snake" grapple, in a way that the snake hand or ordinary fist cannot be used to strike.
Of course, as you said, there is a counter to everything, and then every counter can be countered again and so forth. I was just curious about your strategy in this kind of scenario. Just remembered though (saying this because it's one of my favourite techniques), once you end up in the bridge position you are exposed to the scissor takedown. But of course, even the scissor takedown can be countered. PS. What style do you train?
I am going to ask instructors about using a snake hand for grappling. Once mentioned, we do have one technique where we use a sword hand to move in for a standing choke, but this is why I like MAP. Things brought up that I ask instructors about. But that back and forth - naw. I am not good at deciphering descriptions like that. I need to see it.
The snake in CLF is more than just Jin Ji [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeVT0nISs20"]Choy Li Fut - Snake Form - Grandmaster Doc-Fai Wong - YouTube[/ame] [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THIHbjxp1Ic"]Choy Li Fut - Snake vs Crane - YouTube[/ame]
Help me out Sifu Ben. I don't see any grappling in those video's both of which I have watched many many times. Can you point out other applications by directing me towards specific points in those video's? I can think of the hand position helping slip your hand in easier to slide to a choke. I can think of the move (who's name escapes me- coffee hasn't kicked in) where one hand grabs and the other comes down snake position to slap down with the palm and jointlock or break the elbow. But I am not the brightest student out there, so point to what I should be looking at in those video's please. And I WILL indeed be talking to my Sifu and instructor's to learn more about this.
